Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[HuduVudu]

But...but...but....want instareef now!!!!! I am well aware of the waiting game, been in fishkeeping since I was about 8 years old or so. But like some other nonquarantiners said, your tank needs to be stable. Well ****, guess we murder fish in the meantime until they can last more than a week?

I guess people gonna people.

Can't say I have been patient in the past, but the pain of the loss of creatures that I love and then the pocket book hit for the other inverts (corals mostly), have definitely taught me the lesson. I wish that I could transfer that understanding, but I didn't want to hear it when I was doing stupid, so I can't be critical of those that don't listen.

Who am I to judge?

 

[HB AL]

My DT is my quarantine tank.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

I wish the emphasis was more on the vendors. Some of the biggest vendors send out the worst fish. Even lfs can have terrible sick fish. And these people are charging money for these fish and then hobbyists are mad at each other that their fish are sick and dying. If the fish start off healthy the chances of having problems in your aquarium go way down. TLDR vendors suck and hobbyists have to pay them a ton of money and then try to fix their fish.

 

[HuduVudu]

I wish the emphasis was more on the vendors. Some of the biggest vendors send out the worst fish. Even lfs can have terrible sick fish. And these people are charging money for these fish and then hobbyists are mad at each other that their fish are sick and dying. If the fish start off healthy the chances of having problems in your aquarium go way down. TLDR vendors suck and hobbyists have to pay them a ton of money and then try to fix their fish.

I understand the sentiment.

I have been on the other side of the equation. It isn't easier there. Customers don't want to pay a lot. They want the cheapest. They don't order a lot, because they either keep the fish alive or they kill a ton of fish and then leave. It is hard to make a living this way.

You can do it, and if you are doing it right you will be provided a nice wage generally a bit above medium wage. For many it is just easier to get a higher paying job and support the hobby that way.

There are the unscrupuluos, but they generally don't last long. Many suffer burn out. It is what it is. Just understand that there are two sides to every equation.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

I understand the sentiment.

I have been on the other side of the equation. It isn't easier there. Customers don't want to pay a lot. They want the cheapest. They don't order a lot, because they either keep the fish alive or they kill a ton of fish and then leave. It is hard to make a living this way.

You can do it, and if you are doing it right you will be provided a nice wage generally a bit above medium wage. For many it is just easier to get a higher paying job and support the hobby that way.

There are the unscrupuluos, but they generally don't last long. Many suffer burn out. It is what it is. Just understand that there are two sides to every equation.

It's more like a failed business model and passing the buck to the consumer IMO.

 

[HuduVudu]

It's more like a failed business model and passing the buck to the consumer IMO.

I think that is more of a negative feedback loop. The lower quality the fish the less people want to pay, the less money available to provide better quality fish.

It isn't just the LFS it is the whole supply chain. There has been some positive changes with the advent of the internet, but this is still very much a low margin industry. Consumers are definitely not off the hook in this mess either. The amount of poor quality information and outright misinformation is enormous. As a consumer you really have to be on your game to get helpful information. Anyone can have a platform to say what they want, no matter their skill or experience level. This means that getting information can be a very time consuming endevour. There is enough information that it is very easy to confirm your biases and continue to do things that are unproductive or counter productive for your creatures.

I guess what I am saying is that laying blame doesn't really help. As more concientious hobbyist drive the industry, then things will slowly change. That for me means that the consumer is ultimately responsible, whether they like it or not, and pointing fingers will not change that responsibilty.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

I think that is more of a negative feedback loop. The lower quality the fish the less people want to pay, the less money available to provide better quality fish.

It isn't just the LFS it is the whole supply chain. There has been some positive changes with the advent of the internet, but this is still very much a low margin industry. Consumers are definitely not off the hook in this mess either. The amount of poor quality information and outright misinformation is enormous. As a consumer you really have to be on your game to get helpful information. Anyone can have a platform to say what they want, no matter their skill or experience level. This means that getting information can be a very time consuming endevour. There is enough information that it is very easy to confirm your biases and continue to do things that are unproductive or counter productive for your creatures.

I guess what I am saying is that laying blame doesn't really help. As more concientious hobbyist drive the industry, then things will slowly change. That for me means that the consumer is ultimately responsible, whether they like it or not, and pointing fingers will not change that responsibilty.

How am I as a consumer supposed to make a business not sell sick fish exactly? A business saying they have to sell sick fish to make money is a failed business practice. End of story. Yes there is problems with the entire supply chain because businesses aren’t holding their suppliers accountable. When there is a handful of places to buy fish consumers don’t really have options.

yes things are getting better. But blaming the consumer who has little options are not getting us there. Supporting vendors who do the right thing will get us there faster.

 

[HuduVudu]

How am I as a consumer supposed to make a business not sell sick fish exactly?

You don't buy from them. Starve them out. That is how this works.

I have forgone many purchases because I don't like the business practices or the products. The LFS I used to go to and thought I was supporting, turned out to be skeezy. I stopped going there. I buy elsewhere.

It isn't easy, and with all the other things happening in the hobby it can make things downright difficult. Certianly this isn't for the faint of heart.

As an example, I do not like the way that aquarium controllers are going, I have stopped buying from the major ones and I have been duped by them. They are adding functionality that I know that long term hobbyists don't like or want. They are not focusing on things that are important to maintianing healthy tanks for the long haul. The reason that they are doing this is because new hobbyists are demanding features that they think will help them and becuase they are new they just don't know. The new hobbyists drive the market. Unfortunately they will be out and their equipment will be on the secondary market. This also encourages manufactures to cut corners. Creating a cut rate product and filling in the gap with marketing. The companies will tell you how great their product is because they know that a huge majority of their customers will end up getting rid of their equipmment within a year or so, and they won't blame the equipment. They also know that the new person is time sensitive and wants a great custommer experience and doesn't care about the long term quality of their product. I could go on and on about controllers. What I ended up doing is going with a more DIY controller. It was harder to find and required a deeper understanding on my part, but it is rock solid and I don't need to futz with it for it to work. My money as a long term hobbyist is controlling the market. Eventually the screeching masses of new people will find the new product and start demanding. It is hard to turn down this money and I will once again be forced to find another solution.

A business saying they have to sell sick fish to make money is a failed business practice. End of story.

Yup, and they will go out of business. Caveat Emptor. Ever notice how quickly businesses in this hobby just disappear?

Yes there is problems with the entire supply chain because businesses aren’t holding their suppliers accountable.

And you aren't holding the businesses accountable.

Believe it or not we the hobbyists hold the most power because we have the money.

When there is a handful of places to buy fish consumers don’t really have options.

There are always options. You may not like those options but there are options. This is where I feel that you are failing to understand your power. No one said that it would be comfortable to make a stand and do the right thing. You have power and you should use it. .... my 2 cents.

Supporting vendors who do the right thing will get us there faster.

This is 100% the point.

Sadly sometimes those vendors don't yet exist. We have to make do until they do.

If fish are important to you. Then support Biota. Turn your back on LFSs or online vendors that you feel are bad for you or for the creatures you buy from them, but always remember it is your responsibilty to do what is right. No one is forcing you to do what you don't want to do.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

You don't buy from them. Starve them out. That is how this works.

I have forgone many purchases because I don't like the business practices or the products. The LFS I used to go to and thought I was supporting, turned out to be skeezy. I stopped going there. I buy elsewhere.

It isn't easy, and with all the other things happening in the hobby it can make things downright difficult. Certianly this isn't for the faint of heart.

As an example, I do not like the way that aquarium controllers are going, I have stopped buying from the major ones and I have been duped by them. They are adding functionality that I know that long term hobbyists don't like or want. They are not focusing on things that are important to maintianing healthy tanks for the long haul. The reason that they are doing this is because new hobbyists are demanding features that they think will help them and becuase they are new they just don't know. The new hobbyists drive the market. Unfortunately they will be out and their equipment will be on the secondary market. This also encourages manufactures to cut corners. Creating a cut rate product and filling in the gap with marketing. The companies will tell you how great their product is because they know that a huge majority of their customers will end up getting rid of their equipmment within a year or so, and they won't blame the equipment. They also know that the new person is time sensitive and wants a great custommer experience and doesn't care about the long term quality of their product. I could go on and on about controllers. What I ended up doing is going with a more DIY controller. It was harder to find and required a deeper understanding on my part, but it is rock solid and I don't need to futz with it for it to work. My money as a long term hobbyist is controlling the market. Eventually the screeching masses of new people will find the new product and start demanding. It is hard to turn down this money and I will once again be forced to find another solution.


Yup, and they will go out of business. Caveat Emptor. Ever notice how quickly businesses in this hobby just disappear?


And you aren't holding the businesses accountable.

Believe it or not we the hobbyists hold the most power because we have the money.


There are always options. You may not like those options but there are options. This is where I feel that you are failing to understand your power. No one said that it would be comfortable to make a stand and do the right thing. You have power and you should use it. .... my 2 cents.

This is 100% the point.

Sadly sometimes those vendors don't yet exist. We have to make do until they do.

If fish are important to you. Then support Biota. Turn your back on LFSs or online vendors that you feel are bad for you or for the creatures you buy from them, but always remember it is your responsibilty to do what is right. No one is forcing you to do what you don't want to do.

I understand your argument. I really do but for people that just want to purchase a specific fish they don’t have those options. We’re talking about the 90% of people. Not people that spend a large amount of time researching where the good fish are. You shouldn’t have to become a medical expert or business supply chain expert just to buy a fish for your aquarium.

 

[HuduVudu]

You shouldn’t have to become a medical expert or business supply chain expert just to buy a fish for your aquarium.

This is where the rubber hits the road.

Everyone wants the easy solution. I have a saying ... the easy way is the hard way.

Because the controller manufacturers have made their products to cater to those that want an easy solution they have made their product less reliable and arguably harder to use.

This hobby isn't easy. You have to master many different aspects. Saying you can't or won't ensures your failure in the area you won't become an "expert" in. This is the lure of the hobby. It takes some pretty serious understanding to find any sort of success. People see people with sucessful tanks and are impressed because it isn't easy to coalesce all of the knowledge to get things to live. There isn't going to be a shortcut to this as much as people want that.

 

[Jubei2006]

I understand your argument. I really do but for people that just want to purchase a specific fish they don’t have those options. We’re talking about the 90% of people. Not people that spend a large amount of time researching where the good fish are. You shouldn’t have to become a medical expert or business supply chain expert just to buy a fish for your aquarium.

I have run into this problem with my tank. I put this tank together in order to have a harem of Bellus angelfish. I have passed up 8 to 10 of them because of the vendors I have seen them on. I didnt trust their quarantine procedures, or they sell suspect fish in the first place. So I'm working with a vendor I trust, and just having to wait until they come in. So far it's been 8 months, and I have a male Bellus angel only. Have had him for 2 months, and so far he is doing really well, knock on wood.

 

[Paul B]

I don't know much about controllers or other hardware because I don't use any of that stuff.
I also don't know much about buying sick fish because apparently I never buy any.

But I think, and I also don't understand why it is but why is live rock so expensive? It's rock. The world is made out of rock. Everything in the tropics is rock. Why are no companies putting rock in the sea for a couple of years to sell it?

I am asking because I really don't know. If you start a tank with dead rock and ASW you are almost guaranteed to either fail completely, or go broke, then fail completely, or get divorced, then go broke, then fail completely and get a job at Home Depot loading toilet bowls into mini vans.

I have plenty of experience and I would not start a tank with all dead rock. If I couldn't get live rock I would get a different hobby. Maybe bungee jumping or synchronized swimming ;Meh .

Hardware won't help you if you are using dead rock. It's the bacteria in the rock that makes your tank healthy. Parasites are also just a thing. A natural thing that don't mean anything. If they were cute and looked like puppies, we would be raising them.

If I were 40 years younger and $6,000,000,000.00 richer I would buy an Island in the South Pacific and start a live rock farm so I could make back about $600.00 of that investment.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I don't know much about controllers or other hardware because I don't use any of that stuff.
I also don't know much about buying sick fish because apparently I never buy any.

But I think, and I also don't understand why it is but why is live rock so expensive? It's rock. The world is made out of rock. Everything in the tropics is rock. Why are no companies putting rock in the sea for a couple of years to sell it?

I am asking because I really don't know. If you start a tank with dead rock and ASW you are almost guaranteed to either fail completely, or go broke, then fail completely, or get divorced, then go broke, then fail completely and get a job at Home Depot loading toilet bowls into mini vans.

I have plenty of experience and I would not start a tank with all dead rock. If I couldn't get live rock I would get a different hobby. Maybe bungee jumping or synchronized swimming ;Meh .

Hardware won't help you if you are using dead rock. It's the bacteria in the rock that makes your tank healthy. Parasites also also just a thing. A natural thing that don't mean anything. If they were cute and looked like puppies, we would be raising them.

If I were 40 years younger and $6,000,000,000.00 richer I would buy an Island in the South Pacific and start a live rock farm so I could make back about $600.00 of that investment.

Paul,

Here is where we get our farmed live rock. Unlike rock grown inshore or in quarries, this product is from deeper water, on the Atlantic side of the keys. We got it fresh, kept in water, so fresh that it had damselfish in it when we got it.

Home - terrasubaqua.com

www.terrasubaqua.com

Jay

 

[Paul B]

Jay, great rock and I know about it. Why don't people use it? Why would someone pay $400.00 for a doser or controller and then start a tank with rock more dead than Jimma Hoffa?

If you can get real live rock, you really don't need almost anything else because your tank, even a new tank will exude health with very little work from us.

If you can "fill" a tank with that rock, it would instantly be a complete eco system and as long as you don't medicate anything, the thing will be almost exactly like the sea and last forever.

I don't see the problem but I do see an enormous amount of tanks with new, white, deader than a door nail rocks with all sort of disease problems and then they blame the wholesaler, retailer or the poor guy in the canoe who collected the fish while he was eating a box of Colonel Sanders chicken wings while drinking a warm bottle of Dr. Pepper.

We need to forget parasites. I am so sick of reading about parasites for the last 50 years. Parasites are in every tablespoon of water in the sea and they are supposed to be there. The fish laugh at them until you put them in a tank with dead rock where they will laugh so hard that they will get bored and then for spite go and kill your fish.

Fish couldn't care less about parasites, we kill the fish, not the parasites. It's like guns. The guns don't kill people, people kill people. If you leave the guns alone, they won't hurt anyone.

I have been all over this planet and there are hundreds or maybe thousands of un inhabited Islands in the middle of nowhere which could be used to collect rock. It boggles my mind that we don't do it.

I know the "Live rock" I use a lot comes right from New York water because I know, and my fish know that bacteria is on rocks no matter where it's from.
I started my tank with a lot of "live" cement, bricks, asphalt and left front fenders from 1968 Oldsmobile cutlasses.

You just need life in your tank from the sea. Not from a bottle with a picture of a manta ray on the package.

This hobby is so easy and we insist on complicating it to no extent.

The US is surrounded by the sea and on the bottom is rock. That rock is loaded with healthy bacteria and copepods. I know because I have been collecting the stuff since Nixon didn't lie about Watergate. (Google it)



We make a big deal about adding bacteria, so much in fact that we are even capable of spending a fortune on it that someone put in a little bottle. It's like bottled water, take something thats free, and sell it.

I don't get it. I am fed up to here (my hand is under my chin) with the silly problems in this hobby that we ourselves cause when the solution is right under our feet. Almost. Well, in most cases.

 

[brandon429]

check this out


from the list of No votes above being transmitted to cyclers, we now have a new round of fish loss coming up. check the no vote list, then check this tank progression below, and watch future posts from the same umps literally omit all fish disease preps. You cannot change no voters, nor the fish they're killing. heels are dug in because they didnt need it. how disease expresses for others simply does not matter nor factor, over and over.

EMERGENCY - Is this ich

Hey Guys, looking for some options/Help here if it is ich:)

www.reef2reef.com

look at the cycling troubleshoot for this tank above and how all disease preps are omitted

Cycling the tank

Hey guys!!! what's everyones thoughts on cycling the tank with a few clown fish??

www.reef2reef.com

here's a non quarantine loss thread building, I'll stay back and watch to see what the group recommends to him from the general forum

Marine velvet

Need some advice on how to proceed.My tank has been running for 4 months now and about 3 weeks ago I introduced a yellow tang to my tank. A few days later I noticed white spots. I assumed it was ick. I installed a uv sterilizer and the next day the ick was gone. A few days later I noticed my...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Paul B]

Brandon why not follow those tanks that used disease preps or quarantine and see how many you still see thriving in 5,10 or 15 years? I probably won't be here in 15 years so text me.

 

[Aqua Man]

Brandon why not follow those tanks that used disease preps or quarantine and see how many you still see thriving in 5,10 or 15 years? I probably won't be here in 15 years so text me.

Lol..,. Most of those tanks/reefers won’t last a year!!

 

[Paul B]

That is of course true, I wonder why.

Your supposed to set up one tank in your life, live with it and watch it grow and age as we grow and age. When we croak, our spouse or bail bondsman gives it away to a homeless person

 

[Paul B]

from the list of No votes above being transmitted to cyclers, we now have a new round of fish loss coming up

How about fish successes?
A couple of days ago I added these two dragon faced pipefish and that 10" zoa covered rock. The rock will last forever but I am not so sure about the pipefish. Of course they won't get a disease but they may starve. I can't find my DIY brine shrimp hatchery or PaulB feeder. I haven't seen those things since I moved here almost 4 years ago, but I am still looking.

This ich magnet Hippo has been in my reef for a couple of years. Seems fine to me. See any spots on him?