Quarantine 40-50 fish from existing 500 gallon reef

[Jeffdstafford]

I'm sorry man so sorry I truly mean it when I say I wanted u to succeed not just for urself but for everyone.

Justin

I really appreciate it Justin! Just like Meredith said, it's impossible to say what went wrong, but I'm going to fully land on the side of user error, I just don't know what it was. The main reason I believe this is that this was my very first time quarantining, and while the scope of everything was massive and complicated, and probably appeared that I kindof knew what I was doing, I truly had absolutely no idea how to quarantine until this thread got going and I received good guidance from people here. So with all the months of stress and late nights, I must have had a lapse of judgement somewhere and cross contaminated.

*Or maybe I defied the odds and ran a perfect operation my first rattle out of the box and got hosed by a mutant ich strain!!

I know it's frustrating to the max to see outcomes like this, but it does happen. I can't remember all the details and honestly don't have the time to go through all 20 pages of it to refresh myself. I'll say that in most cases when this happens it is user error. QT and DT were too close, a wet hand or piece of equipment was shared, or even just a spoon or turkey baster that was shared between tanks when feeding. There is the rare occasion when it isn't user error we can speculate that the fish had one of the few strains of ich that can outlast 30 days in their cyst. In that case, copper treatment would need to be longer, OR TTM would need to be done. It's difficult, I know, and irritating if that happens to you, but being that we are on the internet and not able to be there every moment to watch what the person is doing, none of us will be able to definitively say "this is exactly what went wrong".

^^ I agree with Meredith.

QTing is an exact science; one mistake can undo weeks/months of work.

Yep, it's crazy how one minuscule mistake can negate the whole effort. If I had a smaller tank with less fish, I'd do another round and get more practice under my belt like you said Humble..but this is one of the few times having a small swimming pool with fish makes things a tad more complicated!

Ugh. Sorry to hear this.

Thanks Myka, appreciate you following along all these months!

 

[robert]

A good while back I quit posting on reef2reef.

I quit because a thread I created, that addressed quarantine failure in a large and professionally maintained system and its sequelae, was deleted.

Why? It was deleted because some here suffer a form of "Noble cause corruption" which prevents them from appreciating alternate, possibly superior and often more pragmatic approaches to keeping reef tanks - especially the larger ones.

They firmly believe that they are doing the world a favor by shutting down opinion which they think runs counter to quarantine. Truth is my argument is entirely orthogonal to quarantine.

I only post now because your experience is so typical...

Jeff - you did everything right - listened to all the advice and from what I can tell went above and beyond in your implementation...it could have worked...but its so common - almost to a certainty - that quarantine will eventually fail - if not today - tomorrow - or next month - or next year...

That's why -- despite the fervent insistence that quarantine and fallow periods are the holy grail of reefing, I am just as insistent that it is more important to learn how to design and implement your system so that it more or less impervious to these common infestations...here, on this board, they derogatorily refer to these techniques as "ich management" and give it short shrift, but others might call it aquacultural engineering...

Here is a little story - I know it's bigger than your tank - I've cut down the article to that section that I though you might appreciate... Its the georgia aquarium...but the principles hold...

...snip...

1,500 fishes representing 70 species were introduced to the exhibit during the September 2005 and continuing through October. All of these fishes were quarantined for at least 45
days prior to their introduction to the exhibit. Most aquarists recognize that the first six weeks is a critical time period for a new reef exhibit. If any outbreaks of fish parasites and diseases are going to appear, they are most likely to happen during this period. Within a month after the first fish were introduced an outbreak of Cryptocaryon irritans appeared and mortality spiked.

In living reef systems, virtually nothing can be done except to let the disease run its course. Eventually, the outbreak subsided and there has been no significant recurrence. Most of the original fish population recovered and eventually more fish were added over the subsequent months. Since that time, the condition of the fish population has been excellent with the fish showing good coloration, as spawning has been observed for Pseudanthias squamipinnis and Chromis viridis. A current inventory of fishes in this exhibit is presented in Appendix I.

The fishes selected for this exhibit included a preponderance of herbivores selected to control algal growth. They have succeeded in this regard and there has been no detectable growth of “hair algae” and other macro algae in the exhibit, except for calcareous algae which now covers all of the available surfaces in the exhibit...​

​

...snip...

The Georgia Aquarium’s Pacific Barrier Reef exhibit is one of a new generation of large, living-reef exhibits. Each of these exhibits has pioneered new technologies and exhibit designs. Despite some failures and set-backs, our experiences have helped improve our knowledge of how to create successful large environments for maintaining living corals and reef fishes. The Georgia Aquarium believes that accurately reporting the difficulties and setbacks are as important as the successes in order to help advance our collective understanding of these living systems.

During the first two years of operation, the Georgia Aquarium’s Pacific Barrier Reef exhibit has proven to be a popular exhibit for guests (Figure 6). The colorful fishes, the natural sunlight during the summer months, the overhead crashing wave, and the unique window design all combine to create a memorable experience for visitors. The large fish population has been stable and healthy after an early outbreak of disease during the first six weeks...
​

Quarantine will ultimately fail - even for the best, most careful among us -but proper engineering and system design doesn't - it's your safety net - it's what will save you should murphy visit...

among those 1500 fat and happy fish:
Acanthurus achilles 16
Acanthurus dussumieri 7
Acanthurus nigricans 4
Acanthurus olivaceus 21
Acanthurus pyroferus 6
Acanthurus triostegus 10​

 

[Humblefish]

A good while back I quit posting on reef2reef.

I quit because a thread I created, that addressed quarantine failure in a large and professionally maintained system and its sequelae, was deleted.

Why? It was deleted because some here suffer a form of "Noble cause corruption" which prevents them from appreciating alternate, possibly superior and often more pragmatic approaches to keeping reef tanks - especially the larger ones.

They firmly believe that they are doing the world a favor by shutting down opinion which they think runs counter to quarantine. Truth is my argument is entirely orthogonal to quarantine.​

I believe your thread was deleted because you admitted you were trolling right in the thread, and then became combative/belligerent when others (including myself) took you to task for it. But for the record, I was not the one who deleted your thread; nor have I ever deleted a thread or post which espouses an opposing viewpoint.

There are numerous threads/posts right in this fish disease forum which advocate not QTing or discuss alternatives to QT - Paul B immediately comes to mind. While I may disagree and choose to engage in a debate, the contents of those discussions are never edited or deleted by me. They stand for themselves for all to see.

At the end of the day, the end user gets to decide whose advice to take and which path to follow. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with their decision.

 

[LuckyPhil]

I'm shattered for you ......

I've always wondered if you QT your fish from your display with intention of copper treatment and in the few days where you gradually increase to therapeutic copper level, what happens if the parasites are in the Mature stage and begin the cysting process doesn't this mean it is another 76 days in the copper QT?

 

[Humblefish]

I've always wondered if you QT your fish from your display with intention of copper treatment and in the few days where you gradually increase to therapeutic copper level, what happens if the parasites are in the Mature stage and begin the cysting process doesn't this mean it is another 76 days in the copper QT?

If a trophont were to burrow in under a fish's skin just before copper reached therapeutic, it could only remain for 7 days (max) before dropping off. It would then form a cyst (tomont) somewhere in the aquarium and within 3 days begin releasing theronts (free swimmers) which seek out fish to infect. It's this theront stage - and that stage only - which is vulnerable to copper treatment.

So long as your copper level is therapeutic - and remains therapeutic at all times - your fish are "shielded" from theronts. Even if one were to attach, it would be too physically damaged to complete it's lifecycle. The vast majority of tomonts will release all their theronts in <30 days. A few rare strains take longer (up to 72 days with one strain) and therein lies the quagmire. There are only two ways to safeguard yourself:

1. Observe the fish for 2-4 weeks, post copper treatment, to ensure the parasites are all really gone. Even if the fish doesn't show white dots, it will almost always display key behavioral symptoms: Heavy breathing, scratching, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior, swimming into the flow of a powerhead and acting reclusive. (The last two are more likely to be symptoms of velvet than any other disease.)
2. Transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank at least 10 feet away from the original treatment tank. Do not lower the copper beforehand. Transfer only the fish, nothing else. This tactic allows you to transfer the fish away from any "unhatched" tomonts, while the presence of copper simultaneously shields the fish from any active theronts in the water.

Nobody ever said QT was going to easy, but it can be done effectively with proper planning.

 

[Smo]

I have had success with method 2. Only a single data point but 6 months now and DT is disease free. As an added measure I made the transfer from therapeutic Cu in QT to a sterile HT in another room via a 90 min Acriflavine bath.

 

[robert]

"Even if one were to attach, it would be too physically damaged (by the copper) to complete it's lifecycle."

Doesn't it depend on how long it was exposed before it found and attached a host? And in this case if anything copper levels were held above therapeutic levels and even blamed as a potential for increased fish loss...what is the minimum exposure time for copper to be effective in preventing "life cycle completion"?

"If a trophont were to burrow in under a fish's skin just before copper reached therapeutic, it could only remain for 7 days (max) before dropping off."

What if this isn't always true?

Somehow ich survives season to season in some cold water fisheries. Studies have asked if it survives on or off the host or is it reintroduced by migratory species? I don't think anyone yet knows.

As far as my post deletion - it was my post - It was introduced as a hypothetical and in that sense, if the reader was not aware, I said it could be seen as trollish and exposed the hypothetical to avoid any confusion.

So I became "belligerent and combative" (in my own thread) while you choose to "disagree and debate"...your words...lol...but of course you never deleted anything...I'll let you return to your echo chamber...no need to reply

20 pages - and nothing is fixed...a bunch of dead fish...and a lot of money wasted...

 

[RamsReef]

would methyle blue or the green stuff be a substitute for Acriflavine?

 

[RamsReef]

20 pages could have boiled down to something as simple as it was a late night and he used the same rag to dry his hands between his main tank and his qt tank system and forgot all about it....

We don't know.

 

[Smo]

Actually, I think many of us have learned a tremendous amount from Jeff's experience. I see time and resources consumed but most certainly not wasted.

 

[Humblefish]

As far as my post deletion - it was my post - It was introduced as a hypothetical and in that sense, if the reader was not aware, I said it could be seen as trollish and exposed the hypothetical to avoid any confusion.

So I became "belligerent and combative" (in my own thread) while you choose to "disagree and debate"...your words...lol...but of course you never deleted anything...I'll let you return to your echo chamber...no need to reply

20 pages - and nothing is fixed...a bunch of dead fish...and a lot of money wasted...

Instead of using a thread where your sole purpose is to entrap, why not start one describing your methods, techniques, etc. for "aquacultural engineering"? Ya know, something positive instead of always being so negative. I'm sure many here would be interested in reading about this. As an added incentive, I promise to never post in your thread no matter how much I disagree.

Here are two fine examples of threads which "go against the grain" (if you will), yet remain uncensored:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...y-journey-to-an-immune-reef-hopefully.310714/

 

[Humblefish]

would methyle blue or the green stuff be a substitute for Acriflavine?

Of the two, Malachite Green would probably be a closer substitute as it is also an antiseptic and has antiparasitic properties as well. However, some fish (especially scaleless) seem to have a hard time with M Green. Acriflavine is so mild & gentle.

Methylene Blue is more useful to detoxify (e.g. cyanide, ammonia poisoning) and also as a healing agent.

IMO; H2O2 has great potential to serve as a substitute for acriflavine, as both are antiseptics. I just haven't gotten around to testing it yet for that purpose.

 

[Jeffdstafford]

20 pages could have boiled down to something as simple as it was a late night and he used the same rag to dry his hands between his main tank and his qt tank system and forgot all about it....

We don't know.

Yep, exactly. Sad but true!

Actually, I think many of us have learned a tremendous amount from Jeff's experience. I see time and resources consumed but most certainly not wasted.

Totally agree; I don't regret the time and energy used in the process, as I am infinitely more knowledgable than I was last year on the hobby and can better care for the little fishy lives that are under my care! And while this thread was mine and I did the documenting along with all of you that contributed, I know there are a lot of people at the time, as well as those in the future that need guidance on the process that will benefit from all the great info and directions that got shoved into these 20 pages!!

 

[Humblefish]

I love your attitude @Jeffdstafford, always finding the positives in everything. Wish I could be more like you sometimes.

 

[Jeffdstafford]

I love your attitude @Jeffdstafford, always finding the positives in everything. Wish I was more like you sometimes.

Thanks Humble! I'm definitely an eternal optimist, and it really drives my wife crazy sometimes But in my opinion, life is just too short to not enjoy it!

 

[Scarybo]

A good while back I quit posting on reef2reef.

I quit because a thread I created, that addressed quarantine failure in a large and professionally maintained system and its sequelae, was deleted.

Why? It was deleted because some here suffer a form of "Noble cause corruption" which prevents them from appreciating alternate, possibly superior and often more pragmatic approaches to keeping reef tanks - especially the larger ones.

They firmly believe that they are doing the world a favor by shutting down opinion which they think runs counter to quarantine. Truth is my argument is entirely orthogonal to quarantine.

I only post now because your experience is so typical...

Jeff - you did everything right - listened to all the advice and from what I can tell went above and beyond in your implementation...it could have worked...but its so common - almost to a certainty - that quarantine will eventually fail - if not today - tomorrow - or next month - or next year...

That's why -- despite the fervent insistence that quarantine and fallow periods are the holy grail of reefing, I am just as insistent that it is more important to learn how to design and implement your system so that it more or less impervious to these common infestations...here, on this board, they derogatorily refer to these techniques as "ich management" and give it short shrift, but others might call it aquacultural engineering...

Here is a little story - I know it's bigger than your tank - I've cut down the article to that section that I though you might appreciate... Its the georgia aquarium...but the principles hold...

...snip...

1,500 fishes representing 70 species were introduced to the exhibit during the September 2005 and continuing through October. All of these fishes were quarantined for at least 45
days prior to their introduction to the exhibit. Most aquarists recognize that the first six weeks is a critical time period for a new reef exhibit. If any outbreaks of fish parasites and diseases are going to appear, they are most likely to happen during this period. Within a month after the first fish were introduced an outbreak of Cryptocaryon irritans appeared and mortality spiked.

In living reef systems, virtually nothing can be done except to let the disease run its course. Eventually, the outbreak subsided and there has been no significant recurrence. Most of the original fish population recovered and eventually more fish were added over the subsequent months. Since that time, the condition of the fish population has been excellent with the fish showing good coloration, as spawning has been observed for Pseudanthias squamipinnis and Chromis viridis. A current inventory of fishes in this exhibit is presented in Appendix I.

The fishes selected for this exhibit included a preponderance of herbivores selected to control algal growth. They have succeeded in this regard and there has been no detectable growth of “hair algae” and other macro algae in the exhibit, except for calcareous algae which now covers all of the available surfaces in the exhibit...​

​

...snip...

The Georgia Aquarium’s Pacific Barrier Reef exhibit is one of a new generation of large, living-reef exhibits. Each of these exhibits has pioneered new technologies and exhibit designs. Despite some failures and set-backs, our experiences have helped improve our knowledge of how to create successful large environments for maintaining living corals and reef fishes. The Georgia Aquarium believes that accurately reporting the difficulties and setbacks are as important as the successes in order to help advance our collective understanding of these living systems.

During the first two years of operation, the Georgia Aquarium’s Pacific Barrier Reef exhibit has proven to be a popular exhibit for guests (Figure 6). The colorful fishes, the natural sunlight during the summer months, the overhead crashing wave, and the unique window design all combine to create a memorable experience for visitors. The large fish population has been stable and healthy after an early outbreak of disease during the first six weeks...
​

Quarantine will ultimately fail - even for the best, most careful among us -but proper engineering and system design doesn't - it's your safety net - it's what will save you should murphy visit...

among those 1500 fat and happy fish:
Acanthurus achilles 16
Acanthurus dussumieri 7
Acanthurus nigricans 4
Acanthurus olivaceus 21
Acanthurus pyroferus 6
Acanthurus triostegus 10​

Quarantining isnt perfect because of one simple fact. Human involvement. Despite our best efforts human error can affect the best intentions. Many times we dont know the point or cause of the error. This is why the best trained and educated scientists conduct experiments multiple times at the same time. They realize as we should there is always the chance we can make a small mistake and cross contaminate. Life (ich) is always fighting to survive, just as hard as we are fighting to destroy them. We understand the life cycle of Ich and how to eradicate it. Just because our efforts fail sometimes doesnt change the science of the quarantine process. There are hundreds if not thousand of points where human error (no matter how conscientious we are about not making a mistake) can result in failure. Our homes are not set up as a lab to prevent cross contamination. Even the best labs have an error rate. A 2014 study found that US hospitals have 12 million diagnostic errors per year. We can debate about effort vs reward of quarantining but the science is proven. The errors in applying that science is usually related to the hobbyist. We are only human

 

[Empress]

Light switches and door knobs are the dirtiest places in your house where nasties grow. If you blew your nose on a tissue, then flipped a light switch...wonder what could possibly happen to the next person that flipped that same switch. We just don't think about things like that. It's sooooo easy to cross contaminate. We're all guilty of it.

BTW, I have read all 20 pages and will read the next 20. Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the way we Quarantine and Save our Reefs.

 

[Jeffdstafford]

Exactly Empress, and that's why I wish the Clap Lights were still around! Thanks for following along all this time

 

[Humblefish]

Light switches and door knobs are the dirtiest places in your house where nasties grow. If you blew your nose on a tissue, then flipped a light switch...wonder what could possibly happen to the next person that flipped that same switch. We just don't think about things like that. It's sooooo easy to cross contaminate. We're all guilty of it.

And my wife thinks my OCD is a hindrance sometimes. Not when I haven't seen any signs of disease in my DTs for the past 10 years I tell her!

Before that, I practiced "ich management" (or whatever you wanna call it) and it was always something going wrong with the fish.

 

[Maritimer]

...but its so common - almost to a certainty - that quarantine will eventually fail - if not today - tomorrow - or next month - or next year...

That's why -- despite the fervent insistence that quarantine and fallow periods are the holy grail of reefing, I am just as insistent that it is more important to learn how to design and implement your system so that it more or less impervious to these common infestations...here, on this board, they derogatorily refer to these techniques as "ich management" and give it short shrift, but others might call it aquacultural engineering...

There's not a lot of detail here ... How would you make this method work; more to the point, how can other reefers and fishkeepers utilize the techniques to keep their charges healthy, and assure the health of fish coming out of the "chain of custody" between the reef and their home aquarium? The portions of the article you quote (with much unavailable snippage - where could an interested party read the full article?) seems to distill down to "Cryptocaryon got through our QT process and into the display. A lot of our fish died, but some survived."

Would the same protocols have worked in the case of velvet?

QT isn't perfect - there are humans involved - but until something better comes along, it beats the heck out of "dump-and-hope". Have you got that "something better"?

~Bruce