Radium metal halide bulbs will not be produced anymore!

BeanAnimal

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In a different context than what you were responding to, IR does allow plants and even corals, to process/move energy between the photosystems and can drive more photosynthesis - study happening right now showing that Emerson Effect happens in corals too. While some proteins and clades can get energy from light up to 850nm, this is more for the PS1 and PS2, using, moving and and processing energy.
The study that I am aware of and the Emerson studies are deep red and far red, not infra red. But regardless, it all comes down to photon energy, and the further we move toward the red side of the spectrum, the less we have. I don't buy the "building blocks" analogy.

Anyway study maybe done in late 2024 or 2025. A real oceanographic org is doing it, so it takes time.
Do you have a link?
 
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A. grandis

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That is not the way it works. You can't just make up absolute nonsense that is contrary to known science and demand that you be proven wrong. You are the one who must prove that current science is wrong and you are right.

My "fire" is that you spread insanely false information that then gets cited and spread by others. You are doing a disservice to the truth and more damage to your "cause" than good. In one post:
MH is better because
-IR from MH magically controls tank temperature and it is better than a heater or chiller... or whatever.
-Full spectrum goes in the water and that is part of the "Gold" something or other.
-Shimmer grows coral better because it acts like thousands of lenses
-Shimmer boosts zoox
-MH helps water motion or something that effect.


The paper likely exists, but it is even more likely that you have misunderstood and conflated its contents with your grandiose (see what I did there ;) ) imagination.


You do fine for a while in these threads and then you slip back into this nonsense, and it is nonsense. Stick to facts, they work better.

It's so funny how much you want to defend and exercise your "authority" and preserve your reputation connected to your name. I have no authority at all! I don't care about my "reputation" too!
Good try with the out of context points! Specially with the last one. LOL!
 

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The application for each system needs to follow wattage/ reflector/ ballast combination for the optimal result for each application using halides.
The heat from halides is from the fixture and radiant heat, infra red. The fact you can touch the ReefBrite fixture is because of the design and the lower wattage used by the ballast, producing less of that heat, by ReefBrite. The claiming of better PAR, less wattage used is part of the ReefBrite combo of ballast/fixture design, as I understand. Radiant heat will be less, according to them. Still, to me, the radiant heat, which is from infra red, is part of the great qualities of halides and what makes it a real full spectrum lamp! The sun emits way more and that is great for the corals.
I've said that before, long time ago, and will repeat here... the combination of the IR emitted from halides and the controlled temperature (chiller) is what is part of the "magic" keeping the corals in a balance system. The IR goes in the water within the whole full spectrum and that is the gold of the combo. I found once a paper with some explanation about the combination of IR and cool water and the importance for the corals, but I was stupid enough not to pin that paper!
Shimmer also acts as a very important factor within the full spectrum and the presence of IR and UV. The shimmer makes a very unique combo of lenses that will concentrate the full spectrum and that powerful intensity for that very short period of time, multiple times in a diverse pattern. For that, in conjunction with the controlled water temperature and the presence of IR, we have also the importance of water motion, that will prevent damages by helping with alkalinity/ oxygen rates, etc... Te action of shimmer will boost zooxanthellae/coral health and the relationship/ reproduction cycle of the algae and therefore optimize the general health of the coral, just like in nature. The natural growth rate, robust tissue and uniformity of the colony structure are the essence of coral health, and need to be considered. There are hobbyists and hobbyists... They have different personal preferences and priorities. Different levels...
Uhm…better reflectors for bigger tanks. That’s the key to halides living any longer. Nobody of sound mind is going to put 6 pendants on a 72x36x24 heavily stocked SPS tank when 3 good reflectors will do the job. Without those reflectors people will move to LED. Someone needs to fill the void and produce that important component.
 

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Even more fun .
 

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BeanAnimal

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It's so funny how much you want to defend and exercise your "authority" and preserve your reputation connected to your name. I have no authority at all! I don't care about my "reputation" too!
Good try with the out of context points! Specially with the last one. LOL!
I am certainly not on the defense about anything here or worried about my reputation.

The "authority" on this subject matter is the known science of light, photosynthesis and physics. I am simply calling you out for making up nonsense.
 

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Do you have a link?

Not done yet. I got introduced to these folks from some other semi friends at Scripps - when I say friends, these are people who I met at shows, read their work and emailed and stuff (not like real friends). You know the kind... They are trying to figure out how to grow corals in places not impacted by harsh weather to be placed again in the ocean (among other things)... so more like reef tanks than greenhouses by the ocean. Just a preview, but LEDs are not working for them with all species, which should as come as no surprise since LEDs cannot keep all hobby corals thriving either.

350-850nm. I don't get into near, far and infa. Too many stupid uses of these terms when there actually definitions (like how there are waves outside of 400-700 that are photosynthetically available). Probably better to use the nanometer numbers. Emerson himself only delineated on 680nm and others have gone deeper. Most studies seemed to stop at whatever wavelengths that they had but a few that could go up to 1mm saw that 850 was about the limit.
 

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We notice those lights specifically sold 4 chaeto is very red , mh has nothing that color far as I've seen lol , mh in winter definitely the best , pull em summer
 
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A. grandis

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I am certainly not on the defense about anything here or worried about my reputation.

The "authority" on this subject matter is the known science of light, photosynthesis and physics. I am simply calling you out for making up nonsense.
Yes, I understand that now with this words. Science of light, facts of light...
My point is... if people ignored what Tullio thought, in the very same subject you mentioned now, just because he sells halides (don't forget he sells LEDs too!), who am I? LOL! But they do believe in what that Coral Lab teaches... it's also a matter of choice to "believe" in what they want or to defend their investment. Easy to prove with papers what they want too. There are so many papers on UV to prove a point in coral detrimental effects, for example. So that would be the bottom line to choose LEDs then... It's all relative. Yeah, if all what Tullio have exposed is largely ignored, there is nothing to be said in regards to photosynthesis and physics too. And photosynthesis isn't everything!
 
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A. grandis

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Uhm…better reflectors for bigger tanks. That’s the key to halides living any longer. Nobody of sound mind is going to put 6 pendants on a 72x36x24 heavily stocked SPS tank when 3 good reflectors will do the job. Without those reflectors people will move to LED. Someone needs to fill the void and produce that important component.
The application for each system needs to follow wattage/ reflector/ ballast combination for the optimal result for each application using halides.
 

njreefkeeper

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The application for each system needs to follow wattage/ reflector/ ballast combination for the optimal result for each application using halides.
You keep saying that and yet I posed an application. A 72x36x24 SPS dominant aquarium simply can’t be fully covered by a pendant that’s paired with the most optimal ballast and bulb combination you can come up with. A large reflector solves the necessary component of that application. We can find bulbs and ballasts (so far) but until we get someone to ante up and start producing adequate reflectors it’s well; dead in the water. You can keep singing the praises of halides but that’s a HUGE obstacle at this point. More importantly, halides make more sense to those who have larger tanks (wider and taller) that want to push light deeper. Not everyone is going to make their own reflectors or experiment with ones designed for horticulture.

And as for chillers, because I have the RIGHT REFLECTORS for my application, I don’t even need one and run halides 10 hours a day.

We. Need. Real. Reflectors; not pendants better suited for 18” wide tanks.
 
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A. grandis

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You keep saying that and yet I posed an application. A 72x36x24 SPS dominant aquarium simply can’t be fully covered by a pendant that’s paired with the most optimal ballast and bulb combination you can come up with. A large reflector solves the necessary component of that application. We can find bulbs and ballasts (so far) but until we get someone to ante up and start producing adequate reflectors it’s well; dead in the water. You can keep singing the praises of halides but that’s a HUGE obstacle at this point. More importantly, halides make more sense to those who have larger tanks (wider and taller) that want to push light deeper. Not everyone is going to make their own reflectors or experiment with ones designed for horticulture.

And as for chillers, because I have the RIGHT REFLECTORS for my application, I don’t even need one and run halides 10 hours a day.

We. Need. Real. Reflectors; not pendants better suited for 18” wide tanks.
We need the right fixtures and ballast for the different applications. We need more lamps with quality! The market has nothing to offer to even get close to what is suppose to be. We all know that... Is that what you are talking about? To get used stuff is to survive, not optimal! This market is basically dead for halide gear. We only have ReefBrite and Giesemann Spectra fixtures from aquarium manufacturers. I can't disagree with you, if that is what you referring to.
Yup, to make your own is great, if you know what you're doing... Situation is bad right now. The only great news is that Radium is continuing to make their bulbs.
 

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Yes, I understand that now with this words. Science of light, facts of light...
My point is... if people ignored what Tullio thought, in the very same subject you mentioned now, just because he sells halides (don't forget he sells LEDs too!),
You are rambling down another tangent. Conflating what "Tullio" or "Coral Labs" does or says with your wholly unsupported claims about the benefits of halides doesn't make your claims any truer. Halides are great, stop making up stuff to make them greater.
 
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A. grandis

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You are rambling down another tangent. Conflating what "Tullio" or "Coral Labs" does or says with your wholly unsupported claims about the benefits of halides doesn't make your claims any truer. Halides are great, stop making up stuff to make them greater.
Alright, I won't make it greater, just great than. LOL!
Show me the pics of your halide tank back in the day and LED tank today. Let's see the differences. Practically.
 
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oreo54

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Not done yet. I got introduced to these folks from some other semi friends at Scripps - when I say friends, these are people who I met at shows, read their work and emailed and stuff (not like real friends). You know the kind... They are trying to figure out how to grow corals in places not impacted by harsh weather to be placed again in the ocean (among other things)... so more like reef tanks than greenhouses by the ocean. Just a preview, but LEDs are not working for them with all species, which should as come as no surprise since LEDs cannot keep all hobby corals thriving either.

350-850nm. I don't get into near, far and infa. Too many stupid uses of these terms when there actually definitions (like how there are waves outside of 400-700 that are photosynthetically available). Probably better to use the nanometer numbers. Emerson himself only delineated on 680nm and others have gone deeper. Most studies seemed to stop at whatever wavelengths that they had but a few that could go up to 1mm saw that 850 was about the limit.
Hey for fun and since you have all the experience ..about what percent of all corals are problematic for led?
Ballpark guess.
You could limit it to sps since that is your wheelhouse.
1% 10%, 80%?
I think this would be important info.
Oh and not one time kill, ones that just never respond well.


Btw even w some species you cannot transfer lower depth corals into shallower depths without care.

Corals of the same species living at the extremes of their depth distribution, at the reef flat or in dimly lit depths are physiologically adapted in order to cope with these two stressful environmental conditions, supraoptimal irradiance and too little of it. The intensity of irradiance (PAR and UV-B) appear to be the most significant factors affecting coral physiology (Cohen et al., 2013) and bathymetric distribution (Achituv and Dubinsky, 1990) throughout depth. Corals minimize the potential for photooxidative damage under excess light in shallow reefs or maximize photosynthesis under dim light in deep water by regulating their tri-dimensional morphologies (Mccloskey and Muscatine, 1984), changes in ratios of chlorophyll a and c, carotenoids, peridinin (i.e., Shick et al., 1995; Brown et al., 1999; Stambler and Dubinsky, 2004) and photosynthetic unit size (Dustan, 1982). Furthermore, shallow and deep corals were found to harbor different types (clades) of symbionts (i.e., Iglesias-Prieto et al., 2004).

Again, this is not your living room..
 

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Alright, I won't make it greater, just great than. LOL!
Show me the pics of your halide tank back in the day and LED tank today. Let's see the differences. Practically.
I don't take tank or coral photos. In 20+ years of my reef, there may be 15 full tank shots all taken in one day and a handful of others, typically documenting a fish injury or problem, not coral.

To that end, I don't understand the reasoning for the request. I visually liked the look of MH better than than the LED. What I do have growing now looks as good as what I did have growing back then. I certainly have 'harder' sps now than I did when I had halides but there are dozens of other variables too. I don't have an ATS now, I did then. Different skimmer now, no water changes now, but did water changes then. I dose Triton now, DIY 2-part (no mag) then etc.

You put too much faith on misplaced correlation. Photos of my tank now and then are useless other than to say that a lot of variables were different now and then.
 

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I think that is a great argument. At the same time, the other side of that story is important too.
I remember running MH and some corals doing fine and some not...the corals that didn't do well just changed a little when I switched to LED. IIRC, tanks have always been a subset of corals that grow 'just fine' for each system, and a subset of corals that don't, regardless of light source. I think it likely has more to do with the system in general rather than light source, but surely lighing may have something to do with it.
Interestingly enough, some of the corals that I had problems growing after the switch to LED, which some people think is a phosphate issue, not a light issue, have stared to grow like nuts for me again, even with LED. Reef tanks are annoying!

I am mostly into acropora and clams - some old school Z&P. I like to keep some of the old-school stuff that was in the hobby when I really got going circa 2000 - Atlantis stuff, Tyree LEs, stuff from Tina at Wet Thumbs, etc. A good number of these corals just simply do not grow well in LED systems - not impossible, but much harder. Who knows of a thriving Purple Monster colony under LEDs - there might be one or two, but I doubt any more than that and everybody that I know with a colony that is able to frag has metal halides. This was never a super easy coral, but it was keepable under mercury-based lights for anybody with a decent ability. True ORA Pearlberry is another one (this is though since there are so many fakes and people just don't want to believe that theirs is a fake) - it is keepable under LED, but not nearly as easily as under MH. Who has seen the OG PPE paly/zoa lately in a blue light LED tank? ...a few maybe, but not many. Some of the Atlantis corals are lost on this generation and a simple coral like Crayola Plana also is much harder under LEDs. Anybody seen a real nice Ice Fire type of Echinata under LED? Wild or with lineage? My general thought is that the lights are "fine" but at the first sign of an event, the corals cannot recover... just a guess since the few who have had some success with these under LED have explained that they never have alk swings, power outages, heater failures, etc. The dots to not connect here.

If people don't want to keep these corals, then fine. I get it. I do want to keep them. The folks that I trade acropora with want to keep them. There is some zen in knowing what you want to keep and then not working/spending any harder/more than you need to - genious, IMO. However, I hate the arguments that they "all grow coral" or "all light types are fine." What if I want to be better than fine? I want to grow any coral at any time. I also have larger tanks, welcome the heat (6x 300w heaters is 75-80% of my tank costs) and like the Phoenix 14k or Radium 20k look anyway - $12k in Radions to use the same wattage and try for the same look seems stupid to me.

I guess that in the end, the hobbyists who do tend to grow all/most corals well often use metal halides at least in some capacity. Maybe they are just better hobbyists. This could be true - you have success at higher po4 levels than nearly anybody else that I have ever seen and it is probably because you are just better than others. If they are just better hobbyists, then I am still happy to use what they use. I want to have a tank like Coppolino or the Weast tank, not like one of the Red Sea Max tanks set up by a store on the EcoTech payroll.

I think that reef tanks are cool... reefers are annoying... and I hear myself as I type this.
 

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I am mostly into acropora and clams - some old school Z&P. I like to keep some of the old-school stuff that was in the hobby when I really got going circa 2000 - Atlantis stuff, Tyree LEs, stuff from Tina at Wet Thumbs, etc. A good number of these corals just simply do not grow well in LED systems - not impossible, but much harder. Who knows of a thriving Purple Monster colony under LEDs - there might be one or two, but I doubt any more than that and everybody that I know with a colony that is able to frag has metal halides. This was never a super easy coral, but it was keepable under mercury-based lights for anybody with a decent ability. True ORA Pearlberry is another one (this is though since there are so many fakes and people just don't want to believe that theirs is a fake) - it is keepable under LED, but not nearly as easily as under MH. Who has seen the OG PPE paly/zoa lately in a blue light LED tank? ...a few maybe, but not many. Some of the Atlantis corals are lost on this generation and a simple coral like Crayola Plana also is much harder under LEDs. Anybody seen a real nice Ice Fire type of Echinata under LED? Wild or with lineage? My general thought is that the lights are "fine" but at the first sign of an event, the corals cannot recover... just a guess since the few who have had some success with these under LED have explained that they never have alk swings, power outages, heater failures, etc. The dots to not connect here.

If people don't want to keep these corals, then fine. I get it. I do want to keep them. The folks that I trade acropora with want to keep them. There is some zen in knowing what you want to keep and then not working/spending any harder/more than you need to - genious, IMO. However, I hate the arguments that they "all grow coral" or "all light types are fine." What if I want to be better than fine? I want to grow any coral at any time. I also have larger tanks, welcome the heat (6x 300w heaters is 75-80% of my tank costs) and like the Phoenix 14k or Radium 20k look anyway - $12k in Radions to use the same wattage and try for the same look seems stupid to me.

I guess that in the end, the hobbyists who do tend to grow all/most corals well often use metal halides at least in some capacity. Maybe they are just better hobbyists. This could be true - you have success at higher po4 levels than nearly anybody else that I have ever seen and it is probably because you are just better than others. If they are just better hobbyists, then I am still happy to use what they use. I want to have a tank like Coppolino or the Weast tank, not like one of the Red Sea Max tanks set up by a store on the EcoTech payroll.

I think that reef tanks are cool... reefers are annoying... and I hear myself as I type this.
I agree with you on many points in keeping some of these old school sticks. I also think too many people are running wayyyyy too blue a spectrum to meet the needs of these OG corals. I believe a lot of the corals I came into the hobby keeping (same as you) were very shallow acropora species that thrived in white light. They were collected at the onset of the SPS keeping craze and were basically the low hanging fruit that divers could easily collect without venturing too far. Now that we’ve all seen them, kept them, etc. the need for new and exciting has taken divers to outer reefs and deeper waters where reds and greens and “white light” may be more filtered out at the depths they’re collecting now. Heck. They’re diving with royal blue flashlights for crying out loud so you know they’re not in the shallows collecting these high price tag bling pieces we see in blued out tanks these days.

As for the purple monster, man I really wish I had that coral back and didn’t take it for granted when it grew like a weed for me under XM 10k’s. As for the Pearlberry, I’ve got the OG growing out as we speak under 400 watt Ushio 14k’s and can’t wait to see it as a colony again.

I also think that the led fixtures available today are too blue even at their 100% channel intensities to make these OG sticks thrive. A Radium 250 watt on HQI ballast is still more white than my SKY leds tuned 100% every channel. People who have never seen a tank lit with halides don’t really understand what that crisp white light looks like if all they’ve gauged it against is their led fixtures.
 

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Something Jake shared that I thought was interesting.

I think there’s still a lot we don’t know.
I think the key takeaway is that interesting or not this has nothing to do with coral, and there is no known coral that contains Chloraphyll F receptors (either bacterial or zoox) even if Jake pontificates that some symbiotic relationship would be cool.

Sadly, I feel I must point that out because this is exactly the type of information that grandis conflates into "See IR is needed to grow coral and makes MH the best!!!!!!". In fact other than Jake musing how cool it would be, the factual passages of the article clearly indicate coral don't utilize this.

I will remind everyone here that IR wavelengths are converted to HEAT within the first 4 INCHES of water. Infrared radiation DOES NOT reach the corals in the ocean or in your aquarium unless they are quite literally at the surface.
 
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