Red Sea mixed reef recipe and 2 part

[Chiefmaster30]

Has anyone followed Red Sea's mixed reef recipe and instead of using the reef foundation elements used brs 2 part or other cheaper supplements? Same results? Or not?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What exactly do you mean by the Red Sea recipe?

FWIW, I designed the BRS two part recipe. It is a modification of my DIY described here:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

 

[Chiefmaster30]

http://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-recipes-draft/

 

[Chiefmaster30]

When you follow that link and go to mixed reef Red Sea states to supplement alk, cal, and mag with reef foundation a, b, and c elements. I am trying to follow there recipe except for I want to dose a cheaper alternative like what you've created rather than paying top dollar for there stuff. Is this an issue.

 

[Ghxst]

I do Red Sea pro salt and dose Randy's 2 part via BRS. No problems in coral health.

I was going to ask Dr. Randy if I had to dose the 2 part equally though? My calcium is high 500 but alk 7-8 depending on test kits. So I dose less calcium and more alk. This is constant after 2 months of testing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, it is not a concern to use the BRS two part in place of the calcium, alk and magnesium from any other company, including Red Sea. The BRS/DIY recipe cuts some corners to be less expensive, but many people use it (it may be the most popular single brand on Reef2Reef), and I've not actually heard of anyone who switched from it to any other brand of a two part notice any apparent change in the health of the tank.

The other additives of the Red Sea recipe on that page may or may not be beneficial, but it is fine to use them as well.

I would just caution again, as I did in the other thread, that not many people maintain alk that high (11.5 dKH). Don't assume that Red Sea knows something that large numbers of reefers do not about what is an optimal alkalinity.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do Red Sea pro salt and dose Randy's 2 part via BRS. No problems in coral health.

I was going to ask Dr. Randy if I had to dose the 2 part equally though? My calcium is high 500 but alk 7-8 depending on test kits. So I dose less calcium and more alk. This is constant after 2 months of testing.

If calcium is high (and you are confident in the result), it is fine to dose less or no calcium for a while.

 

[Ghxst]

Woot, thank you! It was at 650 for a while and I stopped to let it go down and figured it would come to equilibrium. I did an ICP test (450), salifert (520) and Red Sea (550) and have repeated the last two multi times.

OP as The Dr. Has stated you are fine to use that combo and I can personally attest to it. Things have been better in my tank since dosing and not eyeballing and randomly adding red seas kit. My pH is avg 8.2 up from 7.9, I love it!

 

[Chiefmaster30]

If calcium is high (and you are confident in the result), it is fine to dose less or no calcium for a while.

How do you keep your alk that low using pro salt? Isn't it in the 11.5-12.5dkh range. I actually have been using IO but just bought a bucket of coral pro to switch to to help keep my alk closer to red sea's recommendation of 11.5. Which I'm just learning from Randy probably isn't a good idea.

 

[Chiefmaster30]

I'm struggling with deciding what numbers to shoot for on alk. Everyone shoots for slightly different alk levels and I don't no enough about chemistry to understand why?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How do you keep your alk that low using pro salt? Isn't it in the 11.5-12.5dkh range. I actually have been using IO but just bought a bucket of coral pro to switch to to help keep my alk closer to red sea's recommendation of 11.5. Which I'm just learning from Randy probably isn't a good idea.

Most tanks use substantial alk every day, say 0.5 to 4 dKH. The exact level in your tank is usually controlled by how much you dose, not how much is in the salt mix.

A 10% water change in an 8 dKH tank with 12 dKH salt mix only boosts the alk to 8.4 dKH. IMO, that is fine, but some folks do not like such a boost and so use a lower alk mix.

FWIW, I did lots of small daily water changes (automatically) and in that case, you just end up dosing a bit less.

 

[Chiefmaster30]

Ok thanks for all the advice and help! I think I'll let my alk drop to around 9 then try to hold it steady there eventually.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm struggling with deciding what numbers to shoot for on alk. Everyone shoots for slightly different alk levels and I don't no enough about chemistry to understand why?

There are many polls here on what alk people use, but the pros and cons of different levels are discussed below:


Alkalinity

Like calcium, many corals also use "alkalinity" to form their skeletons, which are composed primarily of calcium carbonate. It is generally believed that corals take up bicarbonate, convert it into carbonate, and then use that carbonate to form calcium carbonate skeletons. That conversion process is shown as:

HCO3- → CO3-- + H+

Bicarbonate → Carbonate + proton (which is released from the coral)

To ensure that corals have an adequate supply of bicarbonate for calcification, aquarists could just measure bicarbonate directly. Designing a test kit for bicarbonate, however, is somewhat more complicated than for alkalinity. Consequently, the use of alkalinity as a surrogate measure for bicarbonate is deeply entrenched in the reef aquarium hobby.

So, what is alkalinity? Alkalinity in a marine aquarium is simply a measure of the amount of acid (H+) required to reduce the pH to about 4.5, where all bicarbonate is converted into carbonic acid as follows:

HCO3- + H+ → H2CO3

The amount of acid needed is equal to the amount of bicarbonate present, so when performing an alkalinity titration with a test kit, you are “counting†the number of bicarbonate ions present. It is not, however, quite that simple since some other ions also take up acid during the titration. Both borate and carbonate also contribute to the measurement of alkalinity, but the bicarbonate dominates these other ions since they are generally lower in concentration than bicarbonate. So knowing the total alkalinity is akin to, but not exactly the same as, knowing how much bicarbonate is available to corals. In any case, total alkalinity is the standard that aquarists use for this purpose.

Unlike the calcium concentration, it is widely believed that certain organisms calcify more quickly at alkalinity levels higher than those in normal seawater. This result has also been demonstrated in the scientific literature, which has shown that adding bicarbonate to seawater increases the rate of calcification in some corals. Uptake of bicarbonate can consequently become rate limiting in many corals. This may be partly due to the fact that the external bicarbonate concentration is not large to begin with (relative to, for example, the calcium concentration, which is effectively about 5 times higher).

For these reasons, alkalinity maintenance is a critical aspect of coral reef aquarium husbandry. In the absence of supplementation, alkalinity will rapidly drop as corals use up much of what is present in seawater. Water changes are not usually sufficient to maintain alkalinity unless there is very little calcification taking place. Most reef aquarists try to maintain alkalinity at levels at or slightly above those of normal seawater, although exactly what levels different aquarists target depends a bit on the goals of their aquaria.

Interestingly, because some corals may calcify faster at higher alkalinity levels, and because the abiotic (nonbiological) precipitation of calcium carbonate on heaters and pumps also rises as alkalinity rises, the demand for alkalinity (and calcium) rises as the alkalinity rises. So an aquarist generally must dose more calcium and alkalinity EVERY DAY to maintain a higher alkalinity (say, 11 dKH) than to maintain 7 dKH. It is not just a one-time boost that is needed to make up that difference. In fact, calcification gets so slow as the alkalinity drops below 6 dKH that reef aquaria rarely get much below that point, even with no dosing: natural calcification has nearly stopped at that level.

In general, I suggest that aquarists maintain alkalinity between about 7-11 dKH (2.5 and 4 meq/L; 125-200 ppm CaCO3 equivalents). Many aquarists growing SPS corals and using Ultra Low Nutrient Systems (ULNS) have found that the corals suffer from "burnt tips" if the alkalinity is too high or changes too much. It is not at all clear why this is the case, but such aquaria are better served by alkalinity in the 7-8 dKH range.
As mentioned above, alkalinity levels above those in natural seawater increase the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate on warm objects such as heaters and pump impellers, or sometimes even in sand beds. This precipitation not only wastes calcium and alkalinity that aquarists are carefully adding, but it also increases equipment maintenance requirements and can “damage†a sand bed, hardening it into a chunk of limestone. When elevated alkalinity is driving this precipitation, it can also depress the calcium level. An excessively high alkalinity level can therefore create undesirable consequences.

I suggest that aquarists use a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system of some sort for routine maintenance. The most popular of these balanced methods include limewater (kalkwasser), calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors, and the two-part/three part additive systems.

For rapid alkalinity corrections, aquarists can simply use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or washing soda (sodium carbonate; baked baking soda) to good effect. The latter raises pH as well as alkalinity while the former has a very small pH lowering effect. Mixtures can also be used, and are what many hobby chemical supply companies sell as "buffers". Most often, sodium carbonate is preferred, however, since most tanks can be helped by a pH boost.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's a typical poll on alkalinity levels:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/poll-alkalinity-what-do-you-keep-your-tank-at.186943/

 

[Chiefmaster30]

I'm doing so..... as of right now my cal has been kept pretty steady around 450. While I let alk drop to 9 do I dose cal to keep it at 450 or dose nothing at all until my alk gets down to below 9?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm doing so..... as of right now my cal has been kept pretty steady around 450. While I let alk drop to 9 do I dose cal to keep it at 450 or dose nothing at all until my alk gets down to below 9?

The calcium decline while alk drops from 11 to 9 dKH is small (about 13 ppm), so it doesn't really matter when you are at 450 ppm.

 

[Chiefmaster30]

Where has that poll been hiding? Exactly what I needed right now.

 

[Chiefmaster30]

How much baking soda would I use to lower alk from 11.2-9. And could that be done all at once.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How much baking soda would I use to lower alk from 11.2-9. And could that be done all at once.

Baking soda raises alk, so it would be a negative number.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Muriatic acid or Seachem Acid buffer will lower alkalinity, but they also lower pH a lot (temporarily).