Reef zlements issue, dosing huge amounts

[ulferik]

Hi everyone!

A friend of mine started dosing reef zlements ph plus after using ati+ for some time.. due too low ph with ato+ he went for the rz ph plus. When he did the ph went from avg 7,9/8 too staggering 8,4 with peaks in the 8,55 range..

After this he has diluted the solution with rz complete too lower the ph potency.

When he started al of this he had to dose about 75ml of part1 alone. Today, 3weeks later he is dosing almost 250(!!!)ml of just the part1. This is a red sea reefer 250 with 99% sps. But still, it is 3times what others dose with tank double that size and with the same stocking(or heavier).he is still going up in dosing and is strugling keeping 6,6/6,7 in kh.
Dosing about 180-190ml of part 2

What we have been looking at so far:

-Precipitation
-bad calibrated versa dosers
-siphon in dosing pumps
-poor mixed when dosed
-dosing pause between 1 and 2 part(min 15minutes)
All of the above looks good.

We are now looking at the solution itself, could it be bad?

Anyone with a good way too test the kh potency in a dosing solution?

Any ideas?

 

[Ishy]

Hi, I understand Reef Zlements has contacted your friend directly.

 

[ulferik]

Only with a few questions so far.

Hi, I understand Reef Zlements has contacted your friend directly.

only with a few questions so far

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi, I understand Reef Zlements has contacted your friend directly.

Maybe, but I'm sure we can provide info that is at least as useful, and in general, manufacturers are biased toward not mentioning problems with their products, even assuming they know and understand them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi everyone!

A friend of mine started dosing reef zlements ph plus after using ati+ for some time.. due too low ph with ato+ he went for the rz ph plus. When he did the ph went from avg 7,9/8 too staggering 8,4 with peaks in the 8,55 range..

After this he has diluted the solution with rz complete too lower the ph potency.

When he started al of this he had to dose about 75ml of part1 alone. Today, 3weeks later he is dosing almost 250(!!!)ml of just the part1. This is a red sea reefer 250 with 99% sps. But still, it is 3times what others dose with tank double that size and with the same stocking(or heavier).he is still going up in dosing and is strugling keeping 6,6/6,7 in kh.
Dosing about 180-190ml of part 2

What we have been looking at so far:

-Precipitation
-bad calibrated versa dosers
-siphon in dosing pumps
-poor mixed when dosed
-dosing pause between 1 and 2 part(min 15minutes)
All of the above looks good.

We are now looking at the solution itself, could it be bad?

Anyone with a good way too test the kh potency in a dosing solution?

Any ideas?

Some thoughts:

1. Demand for alk and calcium rises substantially as the pH rises. That includes both abiotic precipitation and use by organisms.

2. Does he see any sign of excessive precipitation? hardened sand, coatings on warm objects such as heaters or pump impellers?

3. I'm not sure what the alk potency is. How many dKH per day does 180 mL correspond to in his tank?

4. You can make a DIY (they may even have simply commercialized the DIY recipes we have posted here).

5. Hydroxide solutions do not go bad in alk potency (unless he mixed something into it). Testing it is unlikely to be useful or informative, but it is not hard to do with an alk test.

 

[ulferik]

Some thoughts:

1. Demand for alk and calcium rises substantially as the pH rises. That includes both abiotic precipitation and use by organisms.

2. Does he see any sign of excessive precipitation? hardened sand, coatings on warm objects such as heaters or pump impellers?

3. I'm not sure what the alk potency is. How many dKH per day does 180 mL correspond to in his tank?

4. You can make a DIY (they may even have simply commercialized the DIY recipes we have posted here).

5. Hydroxide solutions do not go bad in alk potency (unless he mixed something into it). Testing it is unlikely to be useful or informative, but it is not hard to do with an alk test.

No precipitation as far as i know, checked this multiple times last night.

Will check the sand, that would be only only unchecked spot so far. There is not wery much sand either.

It is supposed to be similar too ati essentials+ «

• Highly concentrated (28.000 °dKH and 200.000 mg calcium per set), ready to use.

It is only mixed with rz complete to lower ph in the solitin itself.

Hes dosin 244ml of part1 and 180ml of part2

I wanted too test the solution just to rule out that there is anything wrong with the batch(unlikely, i know)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

,

It is supposed to be similar too ati essentials+ «

• Highly concentrated (28.000 °dKH and 200.000 mg calcium per set), ready to use.

That's not a potency, and they seem to not understand chemistry units of measure well, but from their web site:

"10 ml raises alkalinity in 100 litres of water by 1dKH"

So 200 mL in 240 L will add 8 dKh.

If that is actually being added, it is likely way too much.

Are you able to accurately measure small volumes (say, 1 or 0.1 mL) by weight or volume? That will allow alk potency determination, if that is a concern.

 

[Ishy]

Maybe, but I'm sure we can provide info that is at least as useful, and in general, manufacturers are biased toward not mentioning problems with their products, even assuming they know and understand them.

I'm not sure why you would think that.
I have been using pH Plus since before it was released on the market and can assure you there are no problems with the product.

I'm currently dosing 177ml into a very highly stocked 7ft 1100 litres so there is no way there isn't something amiss.

Much of the above has also been covered in a post by the owner of the tank on RZ's facebook group.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure why you would think that.
I have been using pH Plus since before it was released on the market and can assure you there are no problems with the product.

I'm currently dosing 177ml into a very highly stocked 7ft 1100 litres so there is no way there isn't something amiss.

Much of the above has also been covered in a post by the owner of the tank on RZ's facebook group.

Think what?

Many, many manufacturers do not properly understand their own products, including many big name companies. Few have actually demonstrated what it would take for me to have confidence in their claims.

The fact that ReefZelements misuse units of measure of potency does not lead me to full confidence in them, but they may have correct info.

In general, your comment is somewhat dissing of this forum since we provide expert chemistry advice, without need to go elsewhere to answer questions of the type in this thread.

 

[Ishy]

Think what?

Many, many manufacturers do not properly understand their own products, including many big name companies. Few have actually demonstrated what it would take for me to have confidence in their claims.

The fact that ReefZelements misuse units of measure of potency does not lead me to full confidence in them, but they may have correct info.

In general, your comment is somewhat dissing of this forum since we provide expert chemistry advice, without need to go elsewhere to answer questions of the type in this thread.

I'm not dissing the forum but you seem to have misunderstood. The measurements that the op quoted that lead you to have no confidence in RZ are a quote from the ATI website, not Reef Zlements.

 

[ulferik]

,


That's not a potency, and they seem to not understand chemistry units of measure well, but from their web site:

"10 ml raises alkalinity in 100 litres of water by 1dKH"

So 200 mL in 240 L will add 8 dKh.

If that is actually being added, it is likely way too much.

Are you able to accurately measure small volumes (say, 1 or 0.1 mL) by weight or volume? That will allow alk potency determination, if that is a concern.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not dissing the forum but you seem to have misunderstood. The measurements that the op quoted that lead you to have no confidence in RZ are a quote from the ATI website, not Reef Zlements.

I read a similar misuse on the Reefzelements web site:

2 Part pH increasing Dosing System | Reef Zlements

pHplus is a dosing complete system that signifcantly increases pH, it is inorganic and ionically balanced, Z-pHplus contains all main Macro, Micro and Trace elements our corals need to thrive.

www.reef-zlements.com

"10.000 dKH units in 1 litre" which is a misuse of the units.

and this part is either wrong or misleading:

"Tests have proven that pHplus is more effective than using Kalkwasser or CO2 scrubbers at raising pH."

 

[ulferik]

So, we where trying to get opinions on how too fix a problem, on different forums. Not to start a discussion or anything else. Here whats rz posting on their site»
—
10.000 dKH units in 1 litre

10 ml raises alkalinity in 100 litres of water by 1dKH

Today there has been found a small amount of precipitate around heated gear in the sump. So, maybe we shold get the ph down. Stopp dosing for a bit. Get decent numbers on n03,p04 and mag?

Then dose all for reef to keep kh from dropping too low? Opinions?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is also a misuse of units:

Z-Complete supplies around 10,000 dKH of alkalinity and almost 72,000 ppm of calcium per litre.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So, we where trying to get opinions on how too fix a problem, on different forums. Not to start a discussion or anything else. Here whats rz posting on their site»
—
10.000 dKH units in 1 litre

10 ml raises alkalinity in 100 litres of water by 1dKH

Today there has been found a small amount of precipitate around heated gear in the sump. So, maybe we shold get the ph down. Stopp dosing for a bit. Get decent numbers on n03,p04 and mag?

Then dose all for reef to keep kh from dropping too low? Opinions?

Fixing the problem depends on what the problem is.

Here's my general recommendation for precipitation issues:

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH.
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

 

[ulferik]

Fixing the problem depends on what the problem is.

Here's my general recommendation for precipitation issues:

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH.
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

Still not entirely sure what the problem realy is, but traces of precipitate was found today. Seems weird too let the kh drop when its already low. But if it is precipitation i guess the cycle has to be broken. How low is ok? Its measured today at a high 6dkh

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Still not entirely sure what the problem realy is, but traces of precipitate was found today. Seems weird too let the kh drop when its already low. But if it is precipitation i guess the cycle has to be broken. How low is ok? Its measured today at a high 6dkh

The need is to break the precipitation cycle and give exposed surfaces to to collect phosphate, organics, and magnesium, all of which serve to block further precipitation. No other changes will help if the ongoing precipitation is not stopped.

High 6 dKH is still above ocean levels and won’t hurt anything.

It cannot drop too far down because demand drops rapidly as alk and pH drop.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure why you would think that.
I have been using pH Plus since before it was released on the market and can assure you there are no problems with the product.

I'm currently dosing 177ml into a very highly stocked 7ft 1100 litres so there is no way there isn't something amiss.

Much of the above has also been covered in a post by the owner of the tank on RZ's facebook group.

To be clear, I never once said there was a problem with the product. That’s your own idea. I said we can give at least as good or better advice than most manufacturers who often do not understand their own products as well as we do. I do not know if that’s the case here, but for sure there’s no need to leave this forum to answer the questions posed, and as I pointed out, they appear to be somewhat limited in basic chemical understanding of units of measure.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Did you mean to address the potential alk potency measurement question? Your post is empty.

 

[ulferik]

High 6 dKH is still above ocean levels and won’t hurt anything.

It cannot drop too far down because demand drops rapidly as alk and pH drop.

So it cannot reach harmfull low levels of kh just by stopping the dosers? we will try this and i do understand at some point the demand has too drop aswell.