graham_kyle1
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Yeah even 5g per week is worth the cost but that depends on the individual. 120 upfront is a lot different than 5 bux a week.
RODI vs Distilled Water?
- Thread starter Teebo
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FlyinBryan
Well-Known Member
mcarroll
10K Club member
I think there's a way to do cheap, but buying outright-cheap equipment generally isn't the best way.
Honestly, @Teebo, if the LFS+carboy options is kaput have you considered water delivery?
You haven't stated what part of Mass. you are from, but as an example, these guys service some area of Mass. and will deliver distilled to your door:
https://www.belmontsprings.com/bottled-water-products.jsf
another:
http://springhillwater.com/
Most towns of any size usually have a water delivery service or two, so look one up in you locale. It's usually pretty reasonable.
One I looked up for my area quoted me $7 per five gallons...plus deposit, taxes, etc...they wouldn't specify the delivery cost without placing an actual order (unless it was non-specifically included in an "energy surchage" of around a buck fifty. What costs they showed me amounted to $15 for the first delivery+extras, and $9 for future deliveries. $6 deposit will come back at the end of service.
You'd have to ask about delivery frequency to see if they'll match your schedule - I've never had a delivery service myself.
Honestly, @Teebo, if the LFS+carboy options is kaput have you considered water delivery?
You haven't stated what part of Mass. you are from, but as an example, these guys service some area of Mass. and will deliver distilled to your door:
https://www.belmontsprings.com/bottled-water-products.jsf
another:
http://springhillwater.com/
Most towns of any size usually have a water delivery service or two, so look one up in you locale. It's usually pretty reasonable.
One I looked up for my area quoted me $7 per five gallons...plus deposit, taxes, etc...they wouldn't specify the delivery cost without placing an actual order (unless it was non-specifically included in an "energy surchage" of around a buck fifty. What costs they showed me amounted to $15 for the first delivery+extras, and $9 for future deliveries. $6 deposit will come back at the end of service.
You'd have to ask about delivery frequency to see if they'll match your schedule - I've never had a delivery service myself.
Retro Reefer
Slow and steady wins the race!
What a foolish comment, So you are suggesting that if the OP doesn't follow your advice he should just stay out of the hobby.. Really? This is someone that needs less than 5 gallons to start his tank and maybe 3 gallons a month for tank maintenance.. That's a $4 start up cost then $2.50 per month for maintenance, how do you justify him spending hundreds on a top shelf RO unit?
Retro Reefer
Slow and steady wins the race!
Teebo.. You do not need to filter distilled water just use it as is, the purple cap Wally World is what I use.
I just pick up a jug or two when I'm in there and stick them in my pantry, no big deal and I always have plenty on hand.
Walter Mager
New Member
I have been fighting this battle for over a year now. I use distilled water for my 60gal and have been struggling with NO3 since start up. I purchased a nice RO/DI unit only to realize that my source water has a TDS value of 700+ppm (we have well water). I burned through my filters on the RO/DI unit in less than a week. Needless to say, it has been a pain (and pricey) to have to run to WalMart every time I need to do a WC. Stuck for now unless I decide to put a softener in but we're hoping to sell within the next 4-5 years so I may just have to grin and bare it.
You shouldn't go through RO/DI filters that fast.
What exactly did you buy and what filters are exhausted?
My tap TDS varies between 550 and 850+ and the sediment and carbon filters last 18 months, the dual DI lasts 1 year on the first and 3 years on the second and the RO membrane is over 8.5 years old and still returning 99.4% rejection rate with RO only. Something is not right with your system for it to only last a week or less. Get me some details and I'll bet I can get you up and running in no time. Too many vendors sell low end drinking water systems with a little tube of resin bobbing around and they are not reef quality RO/DI systems at all.
What exactly did you buy and what filters are exhausted?
My tap TDS varies between 550 and 850+ and the sediment and carbon filters last 18 months, the dual DI lasts 1 year on the first and 3 years on the second and the RO membrane is over 8.5 years old and still returning 99.4% rejection rate with RO only. Something is not right with your system for it to only last a week or less. Get me some details and I'll bet I can get you up and running in no time. Too many vendors sell low end drinking water systems with a little tube of resin bobbing around and they are not reef quality RO/DI systems at all.
Walter Mager
New Member
It's a AquaFX 100GPD....3 stage plus RO filter. The resin seemed to be shot not too sure about the carbon and sediment filters but after about 30 gallons I was getting readings of about 25-30ppm on my TDS meter. Did a fair amount of research and asking around but wasn't able to find a good solution. Thought maybe adding an additional stage might help but never got around to it.
Walter Mager
New Member
Here's a pic
Start from the beginning, what is your tap TDS, RO only TDS before the DI and final RO/DI TDS? Do you have a water softener and are you using softened water? What is your water pressure and water temperature? What is your exact measured waste ratio? Do you make water in small batches or do you let the system run at least 5+ gallons so it gets well flushed out?
What exactly do you have for filters, by that I mean micron ranges, nominal rated or near absolute rated, and what are you using for DI resin? If you are using bulk resin are you buying it in small enough quantities you can use it all in a couple months time, it has a short shelf life once opened. If bulk are you keeping it sealed and stored in the refrigerator so it stays fresh for several months?
Just because a sediment filter colors up does not mean it is fouled or plugged, you use your pressure gauge to monitor headloss and a low range chlorine test kit to monitor carbon condition. Same with color changing resins, they are usually a horrible indicator of DI condition, always use a good ATC compensated handheld TDS meter.
What exactly do you have for filters, by that I mean micron ranges, nominal rated or near absolute rated, and what are you using for DI resin? If you are using bulk resin are you buying it in small enough quantities you can use it all in a couple months time, it has a short shelf life once opened. If bulk are you keeping it sealed and stored in the refrigerator so it stays fresh for several months?
Just because a sediment filter colors up does not mean it is fouled or plugged, you use your pressure gauge to monitor headloss and a low range chlorine test kit to monitor carbon condition. Same with color changing resins, they are usually a horrible indicator of DI condition, always use a good ATC compensated handheld TDS meter.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Just to reiterate some points:
My $0.02...
There has to be something wrong with membrane performance for it to toast a full DI container that quick - unless there was something wrong with the DI to begin with. Are you certain there's a membrane in the housing? (Serious question....that's the level of performance you saw, so I'd check if you haven't already had it open before.)
Under any normal, real-life circumstances a membrane should be able to remove 90%-100% of TDS. Even at the worst end of that spectrum you shouldn't have seen the DI canister go that fast (30 gallons).
As AZ said, DI requires proper storage to stay fresh. If this was on a dealer's shelf, or was otherwise abnormally exposed (package not sealed, etc) for enough time, that can affect performance.
Did you call AquaFX yet? That would actually be the best place to start.
I've always found them to be friendly and helpful.....plus it's their unit, so they can hypothetically choose to replace parts for you if something is judged wrong.
R2R is awesome, but all we can do is give advice.
If you do call them, check back here with your results!!
It's likely they'll want to know all the same things that AZ asked, BTW....so be prepared if they don't have a simple answer for you. It could take some back and forth. A call would definitely be better than an email, I think.
- The whole unit sounds new (used?), so no storage issues on your part
- Source water is well water
- There is no softener
- You're gauging quality with a TDS meter
My $0.02...
There has to be something wrong with membrane performance for it to toast a full DI container that quick - unless there was something wrong with the DI to begin with. Are you certain there's a membrane in the housing? (Serious question....that's the level of performance you saw, so I'd check if you haven't already had it open before.)
Under any normal, real-life circumstances a membrane should be able to remove 90%-100% of TDS. Even at the worst end of that spectrum you shouldn't have seen the DI canister go that fast (30 gallons).
As AZ said, DI requires proper storage to stay fresh. If this was on a dealer's shelf, or was otherwise abnormally exposed (package not sealed, etc) for enough time, that can affect performance.
Did you call AquaFX yet? That would actually be the best place to start.
I've always found them to be friendly and helpful.....plus it's their unit, so they can hypothetically choose to replace parts for you if something is judged wrong.
R2R is awesome, but all we can do is give advice.
If you do call them, check back here with your results!!
It's likely they'll want to know all the same things that AZ asked, BTW....so be prepared if they don't have a simple answer for you. It could take some back and forth. A call would definitely be better than an email, I think.
Walter Mager
New Member
Thanks guys....I will break it out again this weekend set it up and let it run. I'm assuming I will probably need all new filters since they have just been sitting for almost a year now. I can tell you from memory that the unit was purchased brand new through Amazon. my source water typically ranges from 700 to as high as 850. When the unit was operating, pressure was at the low end of optimal (can't remember exact value). Temp was fine (again cannot remember exact temp nor can I remember what temp is suggested). I have never measured waste ratio but I was running it constantly hoping it needed a "wear-in" period. I did rely on a TDS meter rather than the resin changing color...as the unit ran TDS levels consistently rose from 0 to 35ish....I am going to calibrate my meter to be sure using a reference standard from work (I'm an environmental chemist)....I'll check back in when I have more answers....thanks again!!!
mcarroll
10K Club member
That definitely doesn't sound right if you were making batches....i.e. filling a bucket, barrel, etc. It could be a lot of things though - I'm sure you'll find something when you break it back out.
Good luck!
airwaterice
Community Member
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DI resin and the membrane cannot be allowed to dry out. If they are dry, you will need to purchase again. I would doubt you will be able to get any help from Aqua Fx after a year...I have a 100% satisfaction guarantee for the systems I build and test from scratch.
Do you know what your house pressure is/was? I would want you to know this before purchasing another membrane....you might need a booster pump if you don't have 50 psi or a pressure reducing valve if over 75psi...Do you remember how fast your unit "made water"....I additionally see this issue when there is not a check valve on the run going to pressure tank. Always happy to help...
Do you know what your house pressure is/was? I would want you to know this before purchasing another membrane....you might need a booster pump if you don't have 50 psi or a pressure reducing valve if over 75psi...Do you remember how fast your unit "made water"....I additionally see this issue when there is not a check valve on the run going to pressure tank. Always happy to help...
Walter Mager
New Member
Thanks for all the feedback!!!! Broke the unit out last weekend and this is what I have at this point.
Tap TDS: 870 (This is the average....took readings from various faucets in house..... readings ranged from 700-900+)
RO TDS: 275-300 (forgot to write exact value down)
RO/DI TDS: 97
Temp: fluctuated between 21-24 Celsius
psi: 45-50
waste ratio: ~ 5:1
Keep in mind the filters and resin have been sitting for almost a year.......I didn't expect them to still be good. It seems to me that the unit is working properly. Maybe I received bad resin or a faulty membrane. My plan is to purchase new filters/resin and try again......AZ mentioned buying resin in bulk, is that "preferred" over buying already filled filters where improper handling/storage of the resin is an unknown? Will keep updating as I go.....thanks again!!
Tap TDS: 870 (This is the average....took readings from various faucets in house..... readings ranged from 700-900+)
RO TDS: 275-300 (forgot to write exact value down)
RO/DI TDS: 97
Temp: fluctuated between 21-24 Celsius
psi: 45-50
waste ratio: ~ 5:1
Keep in mind the filters and resin have been sitting for almost a year.......I didn't expect them to still be good. It seems to me that the unit is working properly. Maybe I received bad resin or a faulty membrane. My plan is to purchase new filters/resin and try again......AZ mentioned buying resin in bulk, is that "preferred" over buying already filled filters where improper handling/storage of the resin is an unknown? Will keep updating as I go.....thanks again!!
Your RO membrane is shot. With a tap TDS in the 800 range you should expect to see no higher than 18-20 TDS in the RO only water and with a treated and tested membrane around 5 or less. My tap TDS varies from 550-850+ and I get 2-3 out of the RO only.
Replacing DI resin at this point is throwing money down the drain literally. With 275-300 going in to the DI filter you would be extremely lucky to get 15 treated gallons out of a fresh properly packed cartridge.
I do not recommend bulk resins, they end up costing more than high quality prepacked cartridges like the MaxCap and SilicaBuster and only last 1/3 as long or usually less. I gave up on bulk resins years ago for that reason.
Replacing DI resin at this point is throwing money down the drain literally. With 275-300 going in to the DI filter you would be extremely lucky to get 15 treated gallons out of a fresh properly packed cartridge.
I do not recommend bulk resins, they end up costing more than high quality prepacked cartridges like the MaxCap and SilicaBuster and only last 1/3 as long or usually less. I gave up on bulk resins years ago for that reason.
Walter Mager
New Member
I was planning on replacing everything......can't think of how to test carbon and sediment filters because I have well water which isn't treated......have read that a pressure gauge can help indicate failing pre-filters but was just going to bite the bullet and replace all of it.
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