Sick fish?

[zibba]

I've lost some fish recently and I've never been able to determine exactly what it is. All started with an anthias that was supposedly QT'd by the vendor. Long-story, lesson learned, qt practices bolstered. Moving on.

Ultimately, I lost 5 anthias, a royal gramma, an ember's blenny and a naso tang. It has been 5-weeks without any deaths. I have just been trying to let things settle down before making any big moves.

I thought it might be ich, but could also be brook or velvet because I have a difficult time differentiating. Or something different, like vibrio or uronema marinum that induced stress and then there were signs of ich. I don't know enough about fish diseases (still a student) so I wanted to get some input.

Here's a list of the remaining fish in the main display (450g):
Yellow tang
Rhomboid Wrasse x 2
Yellow Wrasse
Melanarus Wrasse
Elegance Wrasse
Starkii Damsel
Green chromis


List of fish in the smaller tank (50g):
McCosker's flasher wrasse
Lawnmower blenny
Red Scooter blenny
Helfrich Firefish
Pair of clowns

None of the wrasses have been symptomatic during this outbreak -- thicker slime coat, I'm guessing. The only fish that have shown any symptoms are the yellow tang and the starkii damsel. Here are some pictures that were taken a few days ago.

I noticed some small brown spots on the yellow tang's dorsal fin, which can be seen here:
Yellow Tang by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr

Here's the other side of the same fish -- I'm not seeing much there. But I'd appreciate other opinions:
Yellow Tang by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr

The starkii is harder to capture and some of these pictures have some glare from the camera or aren't in perfect focus. Hopefully you'll be able to get some clues as to what it might be, if anything. These were all taken within about 5-minutes of each other.

Starkii by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr

Starkii by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr

Starkii by ..:.. EZ ..:.., on Flickr


Any insight or thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Z

 

[Humblefish]

Just to be clear... have you seen signs of ich on any of your fish? That is very important for me to know before I can advise further. Brook/velvet are fast killers (as in days) and can wipe out your entire fish population; while ich usually comes & goes and may take down a single fish every now & then. Some people go months or even years "managing" ich symptoms.

 

[zibba]

Yes, I'm sure I have ich in the tank as I've seen some white dots on a few fish over the years. But I don't think that ich is what killed these fish so rapidly. Does that clarify?

This hasn't been a case where we were losing fish every now and then: most died in a matter of a few days and others a few weeks later. I just posted pictures of the starkii and the yellow since they are the only fish that have shown signs of anything being abnormal. The starkii occasionally looks to have loose scales or is slimming excessively. The yellow just swims erratically every once in awhile. I do see the starkii "scratching" on the sand bed and rocks from time to time. The wrasses, clowns, and blennies don't exhibit any of these signs.

 

[Humblefish]

Ich doesn't usually kill in and of itself, but battling those parasites can lower a fish's immune system and make them more susceptible to other diseases. Secondary bacterial infections are common with fish in tanks with ich, and some of those can kill pretty quickly (especially gram negative infections). Flukes is another "hidden disease" we see a lot of that sometimes kills quickly; other times takes weeks or months. Some have even speculated that fish can manage flukes like they do ich. It just creates a lot of "pressure" on a fish's immune system to keep up with it all, and fish that have to deal with that are much more likely to succumb to things that healthy fish can absorb. For example, my fish skirmish a lot, or get spooked and subsequently get cut on rocks - but I don't really worry about their cuts much and in time I know they will heal. But back when I practiced ich management it seems like a simple cut was always getting infected and the fish would sometimes die. Do you see what I mean?

 

[zibba]

I do and that makes good-sense. I have to say before going any further, I've read many posts of yours over on RC and I thank you for chiming in here. Even if it's not something we'll be able to resolve right now, I'm hoping to continue to learn from you and will likely be posting more as I improve my QT protocol.

So, charting a course going forward: Let's say I'm in "ich-management" mode and that I have some other bacterial/viral/whatever strain in my tank. If the fish's immune system is able to fend them off, will they eventually go away or are they always going to be present in the system. Perhaps that's an impossible question to answer since we don't know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'm just at a stage where I need to make a decision on QTing new arrivals and I'm hoping that by treating all new fish so that they're disease free and healthy before going into the display that they'll be strong enough to fend off whatever might be in the system currently.

Just being open and honest, but I've given it a lot of thought and I don't think I have it in me to break down my display to catch the fish that are currently in the system. And, I'm doubtful that I can catch the sand-diving wrasses so that's why I'm struggling over the decision on what to do about future additions.

Again, thanks for your help!

 

[evolved]

A fish trap might catch them easier than you think.

 

[zibba]

A fish trap might catch them easier than you think.

\

I do have one and the wrasses are all pretty aggressive eaters. I'm sure you're right, like always!

QTing all of those fish at once though? I'll let you decide whether that's a good idea after you take a look at my new QT system tomorrow.

 

[Humblefish]

So, charting a course going forward: Let's say I'm in "ich-management" mode and that I have some other bacterial/viral/whatever strain in my tank. If the fish's immune system is able to fend them off, will they eventually go away or are they always going to be present in the system. Perhaps that's an impossible question to answer since we don't know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'm just at a stage where I need to make a decision on QTing new arrivals and I'm hoping that by treating all new fish so that they're disease free and healthy before going into the display that they'll be strong enough to fend off whatever might be in the system currently.

Anything parasitic (i.e. ich, velvet, brook, uronema) will likely remain in your tank until you go fallow. Same goes for flukes (however, that can be treated in a DT using Prazipro). Bacterial/viruses are much more likely to run their course and then die out at some point. Of course, what I'm telling is what the odds say - there are always exceptions to every rule.

I wrote an article for my local club entitled "Ich eradication vs. Ich management" that you may find useful (see link below). Hopefully I don't get in trouble for posting it. If you plan on practicing ich management long-term, I highly suggest investing in a UV sterilizer. It will help keep the overall number of free swimming parasites down; but I've found it's even more useful for removing free floating harmful bacterium. It also would be a good idea to start feeding your fish vitamin enriched foods (ex. Selcon, Zoecon, Vita-Chem) to further enhance their immune systems. Every little bit helps when practicing ich management. While I did suffer loses here & there, I was able to keep some fish alive for 10-15 years back when I practiced ich management. But being I now travel a lot... I can't trust my wife to "battle fish parasites" for me while I'm away, and that's what ultimately led me to embrace ich eradication methods.

Ich eradication vs. Ich management : Fish Diseases - Diagnosis & Treatment - Louisiana Reef Club

 

[evolved]

Hopefully I don't get in trouble for posting it.

No worries; we're not like that here.
Outside links permitted for informational purposes.

 

[zibba]

Anything parasitic (i.e. ich, velvet, brook, uronema) will likely remain in your tank until you go fallow. Same goes for flukes (however, that can be treated in a DT using Prazipro). Bacterial/viruses are much more likely to run their course and then die out at some point. Of course, what I'm telling is what the odds say - there are always exceptions to every rule.

Understood. Thanks for clarifying that.

I wrote an article for my local club entitled "Ich eradication vs. Ich management" that you may find useful (see link below). Hopefully I don't get in trouble for posting it. If you plan on practicing ich management long-term, I highly suggest investing in a UV sterilizer. It will help keep the overall number of free swimming parasites down; but I've found it's even more useful for removing free floating harmful bacterium. It also would be a good idea to start feeding your fish vitamin enriched foods (ex. Selcon, Zoecon, Vita-Chem) to further enhance their immune systems. Every little bit helps when practicing ich management. While I did suffer loses here & there, I was able to keep some fish alive for 10-15 years back when I practiced ich management. But being I now travel a lot... I can't trust my wife to "battle fish parasites" for me while I'm away, and that's what ultimately led me to embrace ich eradication methods.

Ich eradication vs. Ich management : Fish Diseases - Diagnosis & Treatment - Louisiana Reef Club

I'll take a spin through the article, thanks for posting!

Regarding some of the steps I'm currently taking: I run a 114w AquaUV sterilizer, which is set to a slow flow that's should target Ich according to a post by Mojo on another forum; however, I understand that it's not going to eradicate the parasite. I've been wanting to get to a point where I can run the UV for just a few hours in the early hours of the day rather than run it 24/7 but I've been hesitant to turn it off because of what's been going on. I know I'm killing beneficial bacteria as well. And, I feed selcon soaked mysis and nori a few times/week. I haven't tried the other vitamin products you mentioned. Knock on wood, things have been pretty stable. I'm trying to let things calm down for awhile.

 

[Humblefish]

No worries; we're not like that here.
Outside links permitted for informational purposes.

That's why I'm here... and no longer there. :bigsmile:

 

[Humblefish]

Regarding some of the steps I'm currently taking: I run a 114w AquaUV sterilizer, which is set to a slow flow that's should target Ich according to an post by Mojo on another forum;, however, I understand that it's not going to eradicate the parasite. I've been wanting to get to a point where I can run the UV for just a few hours in the early hours of the day rather than run it 24/7 but I've been hesitant to turn it off because of what's been going on. I know I'm killing beneficial bacteria as well. And, I feed selcon soaked mysis and nori a few times/week. I haven't tried the other vitamin products you mentioned. Knock on wood, things have been pretty stable. I'm trying to let things calm down for awhile.

You need to run the UV 24/7/365. It will zap some of the free swimmers, but not all - meaning your fish will still have to endure attacking theronts. But with the UV in place, the overall number of theronts will be reduced making the situation more "manageable" for their immune systems to cope with. It's the overwhelming number of attacking theronts that can build up in a closed system that eventually kill the fish, because in nature their numbers are no where near the levels seen in an aquarium. The theronts become trophonts, invade under the skin and inside the gills... and if enough build up inside the gills that basically suffocates a fish to death. Most fish that succumb ich die in this manner.

The PITA thing about a UV is you have to run it at a slow enough rate to be effective and religiously change out the bulb every 6 months, which can get expensive. Don't worry about it eradicating beneficial bacteria in the water column - there's not enough there to make much of a difference. Most of your beneficial bacteria is in the rocks/sand, safe from the UV. Which ironically, the rock/sand also plays host to ich tomonts i.e. the “encysted stage” and those are also quite safe from the UV as well. :squigglemouth: