So ICH management it is, I guess

[Paul B]

I am not saying you can't have success with them, but you know what came along with the price of having one and it looks like all 3 of you got it. So see, add 3 more people to that factor of having a great chance of ich. Whether it is managed or not. Ya got it.

Actually, No. I think you are saying that a tang has a greater chance of getting ich than most fish, and I agree with that 100%.
But immune fish, such as mine will not get ich. Even tangs. None of my fish have had ich in over 35 years so to me anyway, that means they are immune. I never quarantine and some of my fish are 26 years old. I add fish with ich all the time, just to boost their immunity. But immune fish don't get sick, never. If they did, they would not be immune.
Immune fish only die of old age or jumping out. If they don't jump out, and nothing kills them and they die early, we failed.

People don't understand this concept at all. If your fish are immune it is not managing ich, it is using ich to our advantage to keep the fishes immunity that it was born with working. Quarantined fish have no immunity which is the reason for all the quarantined fish on the disease forum and all the medications used. I don't have any medications, hospital tank or quarantine tank and never had.
I don't want to kill parasites, I want to have them living with my fish side by side as they do in the sea and I want my fish eating prey that have parasites in them just as they do in the sea with every meal. I also want them in contact with every bacterial disease there is just like in the sea. I have spent about 300 hours underwater all over the world and have yet to see a sick fish in the sea. But in quarantined tanks, you can see that every day. Just go on the disease forum it is loaded with them. It's like hair algae. We can't defeat it because it is a natural part of every reef but we can train it to grow where we want it so we can get the benefits of it without the nasty ugly part of it.

Quarantined fish, including tangs are always on the verge of contracting something and if they do, they normally die because of their lack of immunity. I don't have that problem because after so many years, I have learned how to do that, and it is easier than quarantining. But I have been saying that for years and still many people don't get it and would rather try to cure their fish after they get sick.
Have a great day whatever you do.

 

[40B Knasty]

That what you just said was the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It is a parasite. IF it can eat off a host. It WILL eat off a host. No one's opinion matters to that fact or what they believe. There is NO immune to it. It is not a disease. It is a parasite. A bug. Not a virus, fungus, or bacteria.
The reason you don't see fish dying from ich in the wild is because they are not in a glass or acrylic box. There is plenty of fish to go around for the balance for the parasites. They all don't lock onto one or 10 fish, because that is the only hosts. There a thousands!
Let's just say you are lucky for now and whatever how long your tank has been established. If you had ich. You are "living with ich" and call it a day.

 

[Josh Kraft]

That what you just said was the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It is a parasite. IF it can eat off a host. It WILL eat off a host. No one's opinion matters to that fact or what they believe. There is NO immune to it. It is not a disease. It is a parasite. A bug. Not a virus, fungus, or bacteria.
The reason you don't see fish dying from ich in the wild is because they are not in a glass or acrylic box. There is plenty of fish to go around for the balance for the parasites. They all don't lock onto one or 10 fish, because that is the only hosts. There a thousands!
Let's just say you are lucky for now and whatever how long your tank has been established. If you had ich. You are "living with ich" and call it a day.

Maybe blackworms do something to the fish to make the parasite not interested in it? Think mosquito spray, we put it on so mosquito do not bite us. If mosquito hosted on only humans and everyone wore mosquito spray, they would have to adapt or die. Blackworms could contain some kind of natural ich repellant. There aren't many options for ich to adapt, so maybe it lives its life cycle and dies off. I feel kind of crazy typing that, I blame being sick.

 

[Gweeds1980]

That what you just said was the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It is a parasite. IF it can eat off a host. It WILL eat off a host. No one's opinion matters to that fact or what they believe. There is NO immune to it. It is not a disease. It is a parasite. A bug. Not a virus, fungus, or bacteria.
The reason you don't see fish dying from ich in the wild is because they are not in a glass or acrylic box. There is plenty of fish to go around for the balance for the parasites. They all don't lock onto one or 10 fish, because that is the only hosts. There a thousands!
Let's just say you are lucky for now and whatever how long your tank has been established. If you had ich. You are "living with ich" and call it a day.

Really:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050464885700435

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050464806000817

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050464811004128

The takeaway from this is that omega 3 (or more accurately DHA and EPA) is a potent antiparasitic. That fish can and do generate a genuine immune response to C.irritans despite it being a parasite. I may be jumping the gun here... but let's suppose for a moment that immunity to ich doesn't exist. Regardless of the amount of fish or parasites in the ocean... all fish would have been killed by now as this battle has been going on for millions of years... more than enough time for ich to infect and kill every fish. That fish still exist is proof enough of immunity.

It's the same as why we know, simply by looking at the night sky, the universe cannot be both infinitely big and infinitely old. If it was, every part of it would end in a visible star to the point that the entire sky would be lit up as one massive light.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Maybe blackworms do something to the fish to make the parasite not interested in it? Think mosquito spray, we put it on so mosquito do not bite us. If mosquito hosted on only humans and everyone wore mosquito spray, they would have to adapt or die. Blackworms could contain some kind of natural ich repellant. There aren't many options for ich to adapt, so maybe it lives its life cycle and dies off. I feel kind of crazy typing that, I blame being sick.

It's interesting that you mention mosquito spray... whilst not directly linked to that, DHA is being considered the future of antimalarial drugs... because chloroquine phosphate just isn't potent enough any more.

So we're happy to debunk the idea that omega 3 might be able to help fish fend off ich... but happy to use a less potent antiparasitic medicine to treat it instead... go figure!

 

[Paul B]

There is NO immune to it.

Really!

Ref: Copyright © 2012 María Ángeles Esteban. This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)

The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes.

Let's just say you are lucky for now and whatever how long your tank has been established

My tank has been running constantly since March 1971. I add fish from the sea along with mud amphipods, seaweed, NSW, worms, crabs lobsters, etc. and have been for decades. I purposely add fish with ich and posted that many times. Ich or any disease is a non issue for me and has been way before computers or forums were invented. I am not only lucky, I am very lucky LOL.

But you can believe what you like. Have a great day and I hope your fish stay healthy forever.

 

[Paul B]

It's the same as why we know, simply by looking at the night sky, the universe cannot be both infinitely big and infinitely old. If it was, every part of it would end in a visible star to the point that the entire sky would be lit up as one massive light.

At the end of the universe is a brick wall with tar paper on top of it. Prove me wrong.

Maybe blackworms do something to the fish to make the parasite not interested in it?

The live blackworms that I have been feeding since the 60s do do something for the fish. They provide living bacteria that fish need every day to stay immune. Feeding dry foods with only dead bacteria will shortly make the fish lose it's immunity. Fish need live bacteria and parasites just as they get in the sea.

I wrote this so you may not believe it.

http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

 

[Josh Kraft]

At the end of the universe is a brick wall with tar paper on top of it. Prove me wrong.



The live blackworms that I have been feeding since the 60s do do something for the fish. They provide living bacteria that fish need every day to stay immune. Feeding dry foods with only dead bacteria will shortly make the fish lose it's immunity. Fish need live bacteria and parasites just as they get in the sea.

That brings up a question from me, do you think if I bought live worms and froze them into cubes, it would be as beneficial? Or not worth my time? I do not have the time to invest in keeping them alive, and don't want to constantly have to order fresh ones. They are not available in my area .

 

[rockstarta78]

That's a good questions. I am interested to know as well.

 

[rockstarta78]

btw @Paul B do you think the frozen blood worms are worth feeding for nutritional purposes?

 

[Josh Kraft]

That's a good questions. I am interested to know as well.

The site that sells worms used to sell them frozen, but apparently there is a shortage, so they stopped until May

 

[Gweeds1980]

At the end of the universe is a brick wall with tar paper on top of it. Prove me wrong.

We all know that it is the job of science to provide a weight of evidence that suggests 'something' exists. An absence of that evidence would suggest that 'something' does not exist...

Show me the evidence that a brick wall does exist and I'll believe you.

Touche...

 

[Paul B]

Nothing is better than live, but the next best thing is freezing. Worms or anything you yourself freezes is better than commercially bought food because your home freezer is not as cold as commercial ones and I "think" most of the bacteria will remain viable. You will also not store it as long as commercial food is stored or irradiate it like many (but not all) commercial foods are.
So, yes, you can freeze them. I freeze them when I travel so my tank sitter can feed them.
Freezing will kill parasites though. But if you have a sterile or quarantined tank you can't introduce live parasites so you maybe should freeze the worms.

I never use bloodworms. They are not really worms, but beetle larvae and no good for salt water fish

 

[TerraFerma]

That what you just said was the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It is a parasite. IF it can eat off a host. It WILL eat off a host. No one's opinion matters to that fact or what they believe. There is NO immune to it. It is not a disease. It is a parasite. A bug. Not a virus, fungus, or bacteria.
The reason you don't see fish dying from ich in the wild is because they are not in a glass or acrylic box. There is plenty of fish to go around for the balance for the parasites. They all don't lock onto one or 10 fish, because that is the only hosts. There a thousands!
Let's just say you are lucky for now and whatever how long your tank has been established. If you had ich. You are "living with ich" and call it a day.

A big part of the fish immune system, particularly in regards to external parasites, is their slime coat - they ain't got an epidermis like we do. The healthier the fish the healthier their slime coat and they easier it is for them to slough off parasites without them getting a meal.

 

[Paul B]

Show me the evidence that a brick wall does exist and I'll believe you.

A big piece of tar paper fell on my house last week seemingly from nowhere.

Thread on immunity along with references.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/

 

[TerraFerma]

Last night, I noticed my ocellaris acting odd, seems like she was rubbing on a patch of algae. I've been fighting GHA lately, which is going away slowly. Anyway, so while watching the female ocellaris rub against the patch of algae few times, I also noticed that the royal gramma was darting in and out of his cave. Further observation revealed the gramma scratching on rock. Needless to say on top of GHA, now I believe I have ICH. All these fishes have been in my tank for about 2 years or little longer.

1. I wonder why the ICH is showing up all of a sudden after 2 years. Maybe I have always had ICH but something caused the symptom to flare up?!?!

2. The heater is acting funny and due to this insane cold weather temp keeps fluctuating between 78 ~ 76. Can that cause ICH?

I also think the purple firefish has ich as well as the YWG (tho I hardly ever see the goby). There is no way I can catch all these fishes without breaking down the tank. I think the only ones I can catch are the pair of Ocellaris.

So instead of ICH eradication I guess I have to resort to ICH management! Unless you fine folks no of any magic pills that work in the DT (wouldn't it be nice if there was one).

So my plan is as follows (please feel free to chime in and suggest anything that wouldn't require me to break down the tank):

--> Feed heavy (there goes GHA removal plan)
--> get a 2nd heater to stabilize the temp fluctuation
--> Stop feeding pallets since they sink quick with Selcon/Garlic (I know garlic is debate-able)
--> Feed frozen with Selcon AND Garlic.
--> During work hour use auto feeder to feed pallet to increase food uptake (again, welcome back GHA)
--> Continue to observe (along with hope and pray)

P.S. There are NO VISIBLE sign of ICH or anything on these fishes. So I am assuming the infected areas are under the gill right now. Hopefully it doesn't spread.

PaulB is giving you some very good advice. In addition to that I've found that the Spectrum no ich food helps slow things down in a pinch. If they will eat - the active ingredient doesn't taste that good so you have to juice it with Selcon, garlic or that Polyp Lab plankton concentrate.

Usually when ich pops up after a long absence its because of a new addition. If you didn't do that, its usually then related to a change in water quality. A two degree temp swing wouldn't stress your fish out. Three on the list would be fish if aggression pops up.

I think cleaner shrimp help - could add a few/few more depending on your tank size.

If you go the remove and copper treat route you need a system with pristine water quality and feed them well. Which usually means daily large water changes in a QT system with meds in it. Copper at those levels is an immunosuppressant to fish

 

[40B Knasty]

A big part of the fish immune system, particularly in regards to external parasites, is their slime coat - they ain't got an epidermis like we do. The healthier the fish the healthier their slime coat and they easier it is for them to slough off parasites without them getting a meal.

Already mentioned that.
Also mentioned IF given the chance. They WILL attack a host. So do your best to keep them healthy. That is all you can do when ich is present in a tank.
There are plenty of fish and shrimp that take care of other marine life of these parasites. They are smart enough to let them do their business on them. You don't need to dive 300 or 10,000 times to figure out there is a balance in the ocean.
You also have to figure 80% of people do not have the money or care to do QT. I do not qt. Should I yes. Should everyone yes. Even when a person qt's down to almost the last drop of water. Something slips through the cracks.
When talking about ich with opinions or methods. They do not matter if you are looking for a cure all. There is only one and it is highly not a good one for the stress/poisoning of a fish, but it is all we have for the cure all.

 

[rockstarta78]

After feeding my fish for 4 days with nothing but PE Mysis, all fishes look fine. No scratching, flashing or anything. I agree with PaulB on feeding quality food to your fish. I think I am going to move away from pallet. My only issue at this point is, one cube of frozen food is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much for my tank. So I cut the cube in half, even that is too much for my tank. So I guess I'll always have extra nutrient. Or I should really go get more snails.

 

[Josh Kraft]

After feeding my fish for 4 days with nothing but PE Mysis, all fishes look fine. No scratching, flashing or anything. I agree with PaulB on feeding quality food to your fish. I think I am going to move away from pallet. My only issue at this point is, one cube of frozen food is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much for my tank. So I cut the cube in half, even that is too much for my tank. So I guess I'll always have extra nutrient. Or I should really go get more snails.

You could buy one that is a tray, it's easier to smash and break than cubes

 

[Gweeds1980]

After feeding my fish for 4 days with nothing but PE Mysis, all fishes look fine. No scratching, flashing or anything. I agree with PaulB on feeding quality food to your fish. I think I am going to move away from pallet. My only issue at this point is, one cube of frozen food is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much for my tank. So I cut the cube in half, even that is too much for my tank. So I guess I'll always have extra nutrient. Or I should really go get more snails.

Make your own! Far cheaper and better than anything you can buy. You have complete control over it AND you can add omega 3 to make sure your fish have plenty of DHA and EPA to fend off those pesky parasites