Suspected ammonia burn

[ss88]

I have a recently imported Arothron meleagris golden phase received on 11/15/23. Shipment was delayed and water was around 60f.

Its presenting with suspected ammonia burn. Labored breathing, lethargic, slight opacity in eye cornea. All fish acclimated by matching tank water to shipping water conditions for salinity and pH, thus upon opening bag, fish was immediately removed from ammonia ladened water. pH of incoming water was 6.7.

Respiration is around 1 breath per second.

None of the other specimens acquired and acclimated into the same system at the same time are experiencing the symptoms. All others are adjusting to tank conditions slowly.

Is there any evidence methylene blue is actually helpful? As a diver, I'm aware of partial pressures, but in such low pressure conditions 0.50 psi is it possible to experience issues with administrating air stone with concentrated oxygen, as I happen to have both oxygen cylinder and oxygen concentrator on hand. If gills are inflamed, it would seem logical that increased O2 would help reduce functional demands. If I remember correctly, I read once that in some specimens specifically (Sphyrna lewini), oxygen levels exceeding 100% are helpful during transport.

 

[MnFish1]

I have a recently imported Arothron meleagris golden phase received on 11/15/23. Shipment was delayed and water was around 60f.

Its presenting with suspected ammonia burn. Labored breathing, lethargic, slight opacity in eye cornea. All fish acclimated by matching tank water to shipping water conditions for salinity and pH, thus upon opening bag, fish was immediately removed from ammonia ladened water. pH of incoming water was 6.7.

Respiration is around 1 breath per second.

None of the other specimens acquired and acclimated into the same system at the same time are experiencing the symptoms. All others are adjusting to tank conditions slowly.

Is there any evidence methylene blue is actually helpful? As a diver, I'm aware of partial pressures, but in such low pressure conditions 0.50 psi is it possible to experience issues with administrating air stone with concentrated oxygen, as I happen to have both oxygen cylinder and oxygen concentrator on hand. If gills are inflamed, it would seem logical that increased O2 would help reduce functional demands. If I remember correctly, I read once that in some specimens specifically (Sphyrna lewini), oxygen levels exceeding 100% are helpful during transport.

I am not a big fan of methylene blue. Additionally 'ammonia burn', tends to not be a big issue in a low pH environment. As well using concentrated oxygen constantly in a tank may increase irritation, rather than improve things.

I would merely watch the fish as you are - and hope for the best. I assume you have it in a quarantine tank, separate from a display - meaning you could add methylene blue if you wanted to do so. The respiratory rate (if I'm reading your comment correctly) - is not high. How is the fish's behavior otherwise? Is the lethargy improving?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Please post pics of the fish in question and what is current ammonia level in your tank?
As for eye, keep white intensity lower

 

[vetteguy53081]

Please post pics of the fish in question and what is current ammonia level in your tank?
As for eye, keep white intensity lower

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a recently imported Arothron meleagris golden phase received on 11/15/23. Shipment was delayed and water was around 60f.

Its presenting with suspected ammonia burn. Labored breathing, lethargic, slight opacity in eye cornea. All fish acclimated by matching tank water to shipping water conditions for salinity and pH, thus upon opening bag, fish was immediately removed from ammonia ladened water. pH of incoming water was 6.7.

Respiration is around 1 breath per second.

None of the other specimens acquired and acclimated into the same system at the same time are experiencing the symptoms. All others are adjusting to tank conditions slowly.

Is there any evidence methylene blue is actually helpful? As a diver, I'm aware of partial pressures, but in such low pressure conditions 0.50 psi is it possible to experience issues with administrating air stone with concentrated oxygen, as I happen to have both oxygen cylinder and oxygen concentrator on hand. If gills are inflamed, it would seem logical that increased O2 would help reduce functional demands. If I remember correctly, I read once that in some specimens specifically (Sphyrna lewini), oxygen levels exceeding 100% are helpful during transport.

I agree with @MnFish1 - methylene blue is not very effective. That is information extrapolated from using MB to treat cyanide poisoning in humans. The isn’t much evidence that it helps in cases like this. I also question ammonia burns of the gills as being an issue - both because it’s been a week now, and then, it sounds like the fish was not exposed to high ammonia and a high pH at the same time?
Adding oxygen can help with fish that have respiratory issues - but the puffer is only breathing at 60 bpm, just a bit faster than I would expect.
Can you post a video of the fish?
Jay

 

[ss88]

 

[ss88]

Thats what I thought I remember concerning methylene blue. Just wanted to confirm.

I should note a few things, the fish are acclimated into a sterile environment. No bio filter and treated with prophylactic antibiotics for 48hrs. Managed ammonia with large water changes of premixed water with same pH and salinity, also addition of amquil. Ammonia was tested every 12 hrs and never exceed anything that was above 0.1ppm. All other stock is doing well. This particular fish has not improved in condition.


Having seen how fish are held overseas in 3rd world countries and collected, especially degassing their swim bladders using same needles for weeks. I find its best to treat new imports prophylactically with antibiotics. Others thoughts on this matter?

 

[ss88]

I will note, there are suspected gill and body flukes on the other tank inhabitants. So i do need to commence with treatment soon, but have held off in an attempt to limit additional stress to this specimen. No copper in system either at the moment.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thats what I thought I remember concerning methylene blue. Just wanted to confirm.

I should note a few things, the fish are acclimated into a sterile environment. No bio filter and treated with prophylactic antibiotics for 48hrs. Managed ammonia with large water changes of premixed water with same pH and salinity, also addition of amquil. Ammonia was tested every 12 hrs and never exceed anything that was above 0.1ppm. All other stock is doing well. This particular fish has not improved in condition.


Having seen how fish are held overseas in 3rd world countries and collected, especially degassing their swim bladders using same needles for weeks. I find its best to treat new imports prophylactically with antibiotics. Others thoughts on this matter?

This species is usually caught in shallow water with hand nets, so you can rule out "needling" or cyanide as issues.

Jay

 

[ss88]

@Jay Hemdal good point about them being from shallow water. When diving I have always seen these puffers in shallow water in Costa Rica and Maldives.

Wasn’t particularly worried about this specimen developing a secondary infection but more so about the pomacanthidae angels.

Any ideas what might be the problem here?

Certainly not displaying normal behavior and breathing seems labored.

I can’t say how the importer handled the fish, but they are rather versed in imports so I assume they managed potential ammonia toxicity correctly. One of the big 3.

It was purchased at wholesaler likely a 5-7 day layover in LA. Thus its been state side for a little under 2 weeks I would guess.

I suspect this guy will fall within that category of unknown and new import deaths. Having personally seen how 3rd world exporter facilities handle livestock, I’m surprised more then 10% of new specimens live past 3 months.

 

[ss88]

You can see white discoloration in the facial area. I suspected this was ammonia burn because some small amount of flesh had abraded earlier on 11/18/23. Symptoms seemed similar to chemical burn.

Borderline moribund.

All other livestock seems happy and active. Weird.

Beginning to think something happened before I received the specimen, as 10 other specimens are all active, eating and appear with normal behavior.

 

[ss88]

Borderline moribund.

Happy thanksgiving!

Died this morning.
Necropsy next.
Tetrodotoxin. double ppe.
Will post pictures.
Hopefully can get an answer as to why.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Happy thanksgiving!

Died this morning.
Necropsy next.
Tetrodotoxin. double ppe.
Will post pictures.
Hopefully can get an answer as to why.

Sorry to hear. for what it's worth, here is an excerpt from my book on running a basic necropsy:

In addition to a fresh specimen, the aquarist will need the following minimal number of tools (Optional items are marked with an asterisk):
● Dissecting microscope (to identify metazoans, fungus, and most protozoans)
● Dissecting kit
● Latex rubber gloves
● Dissecting tray
● Sterile fresh and marine water
● Slides and cover slips
● *Compound microscope (for smaller protozoans and some bacteria)
● *Scale and calipers
● *Specimen jars and 10% buffered formalin solution (to preserve samples)

This procedure progresses in a linear fashion from an initial cursory assessment, to more involved examinations, to (hopefully) an accurate diagnosis. The process shouldn’t stop there—the final step is the follow-up, a treatment or some other resolution so that additional fish do not die in the same fashion. After each point in the procedure, determine whether a diagnosis can be made; if not, proceed to the next step.

1) Determine the fish’s history. Was it recently moved to a new aquarium? Had it been eating well? Had it been exposed to any other fish that subsequently died? How long has it been deceased? Depending on the water temperature, a fish that has been dead more than an hour or two may be less suitable for necropsy. Be aware that if you do not know the fish’s history from your own observations, you will need to rely on data from others. This can create errors in diagnosis due to misinformation or misinterpretation of information.

2) Examine the exterior of the fish by eye from all angles. Look for damaged fins, emaciation, exophthalmia, and any other grossly visible signs. Examine the gills. Pale pink or white gills can indicate anemia, or that the specimen has begun to decompose. Optionally, weigh and measure the fish.

3) Using a scalpel, scrape the body of the fish from head to tail and place the resulting mucus on a slide with a drop of sterile fresh or salt water and cover with a slip. Examine under a dissecting microscope at 30x to 80x magnification. If the fish is freshly dead, the presence of any moving organisms should be suspect. However, fish that have been lying on the bottom of a tank for more than 30 minutes often pick up a whole collection of non-parasitic scavengers that were not actually involved with the animal’s death. The basic types of parasites seen will be protozoans or metazoans, in some cases both. If the mucus is devoid of life, try a second scrape just to confirm the first negative result.

4) Perform the same technique using a clip from the fish’s gills. Are the gill filaments filled with red blood cells or are they pale (which might indicate anemia or is an artifact of the fish having been dead for too long)? Look for any telangiectasia (a dilation of blood vessels in the secondary gill lamellae). These look like little red balloons. They can be caused by trauma or water quality issues.

Optionally, examine a thin section of gill under an oil immersion lens. In some cases, bacterial gill disease can be confirmed without staining or culturing—but the organisms are right at the limit of visibility.

In the case of the gills, any damage or the presence of living organisms should be considered highly suspect as the cause of death. Gills are a vital organ and are rich in blood for parasites to feed on. Furthermore, scavengers do not reach the gill chamber of a dead fish too easily, so the presence of incidental post-mortem organisms is less likely.

5) Using a sharp scalpel, open the fish’s body cavity from the anal opening through the gill arch, and cut back the body wall on one side to expose the internal organs.

Remove the stomach and intestine and open them up. Look for the presence/absence of food and place samples under a dissecting scope as in step #3 to look for parasites.

Grossly examine the other organs—look for white or yellow nodules in the liver or spleen. Make a wet-mount slide of any nodules located. Look for protozoan cysts. In the absence of this, the nodules may very well be a symptom of a Mycobacterium sp. bacterial infection.

6) The necropsy procedure using the equipment outlined above usually stops at this point. Further examination requires histopathology techniques performed by a laboratory. Always dispose of animal waste and used glass slides in a safe manner, and always wear gloves when performing these procedures.


Jay

 

[ss88]

@Jay Hemdal thanks for the information.

 

[ss88]

 

[ss88]

 

[ss88]

Any ideas? The bio fluid from the (spleen?) looked inflamed or is that normal?

I have had the opportunity to connect via chat directly with exporter in Tonga. They stated only net collect and degass puffers only if necessary. They recall this particular specimen as it was recently shipped to the importer purchased from.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Any ideas? The bio fluid from the (spleen?) looked inflamed or is that normal?

I have had the opportunity to connect via chat directly with exporter in Tonga. They stated only net collect and degass puffers only if necessary. They recall this particular specimen as it was recently shipped to the importer purchased from.

Correct, as far as I've ever heard, Tonga does not use drugs to collect fish.

The gills look mushy. That can be from decomposition, but I also see a white nodule in the last photo. Did you look at them under a microscope?

I see lots of bile staining - not sure what all causes that, but liver disfunction and starvation are two possibilities.

Jay

 

[ss88]

I’ll check the gill samples, but its likely a piece of substrate.

Are puffers more sensitive to neomycin.

I did a loading dosage of 12mg/L ish of neomycin.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’ll check the gill samples, but its likely a piece of substrate.

Are puffers more sensitive to neomycin.

I did a loading dosage of 12mg/L ish of neomycin.

I don't know about puffer-specific toxicity, but neomycin is well tolerated by most fish. My standard dose is 66 mg / l every three days for 3 treatments, so you were much lower than that. I doubt it would be toxic, and it also isn't likely to be very effective at that low of a dose either.

Jay