Switched to Tropic Marin Pro Reef salt-- so why the low Alk and Calcium??

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

Hi, was hoping someone could help me out on this... just as the title states, I recently switched from regular salt mix to Tropic Marin Pro Reef salt mix, because I have added several types of SPS to my reef over the last few months and wanted a salt mix that would provide a good baseline for Alk and Calcium. I understand that no matter what mix you use you'll ultimately have to supplement that which your corals use up over time, but I measured some freshly mixed saltwater before adding it to my tank and found that it had VERY low alk (around 3.5 dKH) and pretty low calcium (360 ppm) when mixed at 78 degrees F and 1.025 SG.

Am I missing something here? I thought the whole point in buying the good stuff was that it would at least start out at a good/balanced level I would not have to dose with ESV... could this be a bad batch, or is it always like this?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

[SeahorseKeeper]

Did you mix the salt before adding it to the water?

 

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

Did you mix the salt before adding it to the water?

This was the reading I was getting after mixing it for a few hours with 20 gallons of RO/DI water, before adding to my tank.

 

[SeahorseKeeper]

I'm referring to the salt mix in the bucket (or bag) before it touched water. Some settling can occur causing the parameters to be goofy.


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[.Marshall]

Your alk test is off. My brand new Tropic Marin Bio Actif salt mixes to ~7.7 - 7.8 dkh.

 

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

I didnt mix the dry salt no... That could cause it? Its a huge bucket not even sure how i could mix it without getting it all over the floor?

An if the alk kit is bad would it get normal readings from my dt? Cuz those have been fine ( around 9) only new water is around 3


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[mcarroll]

This is how Pro Reef mixes - it is not an accident or coincidence of how you did it. You'd have to ask Tropic Marin why they call it "Pro Reef"…the name has misled many a reefer.

I recommend switching to standard grade Tropic Marin. The de facto standard Instant Ocean or (even better) Reef Crystals would also be good alternatives. Personally I use Reef Crystals.

-Matt

 

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

This is how Pro Reef mixes - it is not an accident or coincidence of how you did it. You'd have to ask Tropic Marin why they call it "Pro Reef"…the name has misled many a reefer.

I recommend switching to standard grade Tropic Marin. The de facto standard Instant Ocean or (even better) Reef Crystals would also be good alternatives. Personally I use Reef Crystals.

-Matt

I have been in contact with a rep from Tropic Marin to try and troubleshoot... the salt is designed to have a lower than average Alk level, but not as low as what mine was reading. If anyone else has this problem, I suggest you try contacting the manufacturer, they will work with you to find the cause of the problem.

 

[mcarroll]

Bear with me...this math would be better on the back of an envelope.

Your corals put a drain of X on the alk supply.

Say you were doing 10% water changes for easy math.

Assume TMProReef mixes to 7dKH.

At that rate you were only adding around ((7dKH * 10%) - X)...I think in theory you would have bottomed out at less than 1 dKH. (Of course a crash would happen before you got that low in a test.)

Again, no mystery that this is how it turned out...in kind, there's a reason (e.g.) Instant Ocean has the alk levels (etc) that it has.

-Matt

P.S. Correct the variables for your reality...the conclusion won't be much different though.

 

[Lou Ekus]

More reinforcement for more misconceptions.

Bear with me...this math would be better on the back of an envelope.

Your corals put a drain of X on the alk supply.

Say you were doing 10% water changes for easy math.

Assume TMProReef mixes to 7dKH.

At that rate you were only adding around ((7dKH * 10%) - X)...I think in theory you would have bottomed out at less than 1 dKH. (Of course a crash would happen before you got that low in a test.)

Again, no mystery that this is how it turned out...in kind, there's a reason (e.g.) Instant Ocean has the alk levels (etc) that it has.

-Matt

P.S. Correct the variables for your reality...the conclusion won't be much different though.

To mcarroll:
The formula you are using only works that way if you are figuring how much of a specific element like Ca or Mg you are adding to the tank with a specific water change. It DOES NOT work the way you are suggesting with alkalinity. Also, the perimeters that Fat_Cat was mixing Pro-REEF to are not

"This is how Pro Reef mixes - it is not an accident or coincidence of how you did it. You'd have to ask Tropic Marin why they call it "Pro Reef"…the name has misled many a reefer."

as you suggested. Reefers get misled when they don't do their homework or call a manufacturer for clarification. I welcome more people asking us why we call that particular salt mix Pro-REEF so we could dispel some of the very bad and misleading information out there.

Unfortunately, things in salt water chemistry are not as simple as they sometimes seem. Learning a little about chelated Ca, Ca consumption and solubility at low and high alkalinity levels, influence of Mg and P04 on Ca and alkalinity levels etc. will change your view of some of the less expensive salts and maybe even foster an understanding of why Tropic Marin calls that particular mix Pro-REEF. Fat_Cat has contacted me and we are resolving the issues.

Tropic Marin welcomes questions about its products and is always happy to work with aquarists to resolve issues they might be having.

 

[mcarroll]

If someone substitutes TMpr for, say, Instant Ocean because they added stony corals and they are depending on water changes for all of their dosing - a typical beginner scenario for me - they don't know they are going to crash their alkalinity. There's nothing on the bucket to tell them what to expect, hence they are misled. There are no myths here, just actual customers who bought it from a real LFS who sold it all for the express purpose of boosting their current care regime, but who crashed their alk instead. (Yes, buying and selling based only on the name on the bucket are both questionable IMO.)

I'm sure there's a valid reason for someone to use TMpr (salt with very low alk), I just don't know that reason. FYI once that reason is presented concisely, coherently and maybe discussed a bit I'm sure there will be no problem understanding it.

-Matt


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[Lou Ekus]

If someone substitutes TMpr for, say, Instant Ocean because they added stony corals and they are depending on water changes for all of their dosing - a typical beginner scenario for me - they don't know they are going to crash their alkalinity.

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If a beginner is depending on water changes "for all of their dosing" then they are already in trouble. As you probably already know, if you look at the numbers, it is immediately clear that a typical water change of 10-15% every 2-4 weeks is not enough of anything to depend on for dosing. Water changes are very good at getting contaminants like nitrates and phosphates out of the tank, but putting only 10-15% of consumables back into the tank one time every 2-4 weeks isn't going to do much.

If the LFS is selling them Pro-REEF to "sold it all for the express purpose of boosting their current care regime" they should be explaining what a "boosted care regime" is. And they should know that the customer will need to know about dosing certain compounds.

I'm sorry for being so adamant about this, but with typical water changes, alkalinity will still need to be dosed in a healthy reef tank. The salt is not what "crashes" the system, bad and lack of information does. Also, a "crash" of alkalinity is not as simply explained as not adding enough, especially in a reef tank with a lot of calcerous substrate.

I'm not saying the the lower target alkalinity of Tropic Marin Pro-REEF does not contribute. I'm also not saying that the lower target alkalinity should not be understood and explained to the customer by the LFS. We make 3 different reef salts all with different applications. When people are selling them, they should take the time to understand those applications. My biggest wish, in relation to this, would be that the "typical beginner scenario" that you talk about be a very different situation. Wouldn't that be great?

I appreciate all of you comments. Let's just not fall into the trap of always blaming the salt. Doing that prevents aquarists from moving forward and learning more about how to do this.

 

[Mrfresh]

Tropic Marin pro reef is designed for systems that run cal reactors. Alk should b about 5-6 dkh
Bio active doesnt so alk is around 8.5
Red Sea pro is 12dkh
Aqua vitro is 9 dkh

 

[mcarroll]

Well, weekly (or even more frequent) water changes of between 10% and 20% are a different story...and what I always recommend if someone is starting out with coral and isn't interested (yet) in dosing per se. If you're doing changes every two weeks or less, then you're right you are asking for problems...but in more ways than one IMO. Doing it "my" way, actual quantity and frequency are dictated by an alkalinity test instead of nutrients (since we're good, disciplined aquarists we didn't overstock so no worries there). It may be surprising to some how far this can take you with a well-fortified salt.

I actually find this is a good, practical strategy that gives newbs time to get their "legs under them" and have some success with their tank and test kits while learning more about dosing and the related chemistry - a common source of trepidation - before they have to dive in.

Definitely not always blaming the salt....this one story (which happens to correspond to one specific salt) just seems to keep popping up with new instances of people looking for answers. (Same as my experience back in the shop.) There are most definitely more factors than just the salt to make a successful (or failed) reef, no matter which salt we talk about! (Similarly, in the lighting forum we have to make a point of remembering that it's more than just the light!)

-Matt

 

[Reefer93105]

I have used ProReef for 2 years with a calcium reactor. The last 2 buckets I bought the Alk is 3 dKH. One bucket from LFS the other from Marine Depot. Calcium and magnesium were low too. It nearly crashed my tank. Pro reef no more. I just switched salts. Always test freshly mixed salt water.

 

[Rustyprop]

If a beginner is depending on water changes "for all of their dosing" then they are already in trouble. As you probably already know, if you look at the numbers, it is immediately clear that a typical water change of 10-15% every 2-4 weeks is not enough of anything to depend on for dosing. Water changes are very good at getting contaminants like nitrates and phosphates out of the tank, but putting only 10-15% of consumables back into the tank one time every 2-4 weeks isn't going to do much.

If the LFS is selling them Pro-REEF to "sold it all for the express purpose of boosting their current care regime" they should be explaining what a "boosted care regime" is. And they should know that the customer will need to know about dosing certain compounds.

I'm sorry for being so adamant about this, but with typical water changes, alkalinity will still need to be dosed in a healthy reef tank. The salt is not what "crashes" the system, bad and lack of information does. Also, a "crash" of alkalinity is not as simply explained as not adding enough, especially in a reef tank with a lot of calcerous substrate.

I'm not saying the the lower target alkalinity of Tropic Marin Pro-REEF does not contribute. I'm also not saying that the lower target alkalinity should not be understood and explained to the customer by the LFS. We make 3 different reef salts all with different applications. When people are selling them, they should take the time to understand those applications. My biggest wish, in relation to this, would be that the "typical beginner scenario" that you talk about be a very different situation. Wouldn't that be great?

I appreciate all of you comments. Let's just not fall into the trap of always blaming the salt. Doing that prevents aquarists from moving forward and learning more about how to do this.

I use pro reef in my 12 gallon nano with no problems. I do 1 gallon water changes every other day and use supplements.

I am in the middle of setting up a 220 gallon mixed reef tank what of the three reef salts would you recommend? thanks

 

[mcarroll]

I have used ProReef for 2 years with a calcium reactor. The last 2 buckets I bought the Alk is 3 dKH. One bucket from LFS the other from Marine Depot. Calcium and magnesium were low too. It nearly crashed my tank. Pro reef no more. I just switched salts. Always test freshly mixed salt water.

Sage advice to test fresh mixes, but your issue sounds quite a bit different than at least the issue I've been describing. Never saw anyone get numbers that low from freshly mixed TMpr salt. If you haven't already I'd definitely contact TM directly…maybe even start by PM'ing Lou to get his take. Either of the two sellers have anything to suggest?

I use pro reef in my 12 gallon nano with no problems. I do 1 gallon water changes every other day and use supplements.

I am in the middle of setting up a 220 gallon mixed reef tank what of the three reef salts would you recommend? thanks

Personally, if you are satisfied and successful with your current regime with TMpr I'd be hard pressed to suggest a change, unless a change is actually your goal. I think standard TM might be what I'd suggest if that we're the case.

-Matt


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[Eienna]

Stir the dry salt well before use. Some separation tends to occur during the trip to the store, etc.

 

[Aquaph8]

I've used TM Pro for a while now and Im so frustrated with the differences from one bucket to the next as far as alk levels go that Im sorry to say that this will be my last bucket. I've tested levels from 3 DKH all the way up to a little over 9 DKH. I really love the way the salt mixes and that it doesn't leave that nasty orange residue like RC but I expect consistency in the mix and it just hasn't been there. Ive even tried mixing the dry mix and still the same results.

 

[TriggerThis]

Wow. I'm testing my batches from now on for everything I guess lol.
I think I have an extra low batch of reef crystals right now. Did a 10gal water change yesterday and everything went sideways. All hells breaking loose in there. Trying to bring it back as we speak.