The Curious Case of the Flashing Firefish

[Bob Wiley]

Help me out here.
I have this Purple Firefish—

It has been flashing like this —



Now, I don't know about you, but I would not describe that as darting.
That definitely looks like it is scratching or flashing because something is irritating its gills.

We did a freshwater dip, and what did we find—

Not much. There were only three things that fell to the bottom of the container, none looked like sesame seeds.

Here they are, magnified—

Definitely doesn't look like someone scraped off their Big Mac bun.
Looks like it might just be waste, but I defer to people with more experience...

Here are some facts for you—

• Is it in quarantine? Yes, since we purchased it... 30 days as of this posting.
• Is it eating? Yep. 3x per day. Probably my best eater. (Frozen mysis and LRS Reef Frenzy Nano)
• How big is the QT tank? 10 gal
• How many fish is it in there with? 5 total
• What are the other fish?
  • 2 Mocha Ocellaris Clownfish
  • 1 Yellow Watchman Goby
  • 1 Barnacle Blenny
• How long has it been doing this? Since about a week into the process. I'd say it started doing it right after we introduced a Yellow Watchman Goby.
• Flukes! I don't know about that. We did a freshwater dip yesterday and only three white things were left behind. They did not look like sesame seeds. It also went right back to flashing as soon as we put it back in the QT. There was no relief period.
• Ammonia burn! Not ruling it out, but we have done water changes quite frequently on this quarantine tank and I have an Ammonia Alert badge which reads yellow. Furthermore, we did a 20% water change within 24 hours of the FW dip, so if higher levels of ammonia were irritating it I'd think the water change would help alleviate it some.
• Bacterial infection! TBD...
• When were the pic/vid taken? This morning, which is about 10-12 hours after the FW dip.
• Have you tried anything to treat it?
  • They have been in therapeutic copper for over 2 weeks as of this posting (Copper Power @ ~2.4-2.5ppm)
  • They have gone through 2 weeks of Metro+Focus mixed into their food (with Selcon to help)
  • They have gone through 2 weeks of tank-dosing Metro every other day
  • The firefish got a 5 minute FW dip last night.
  • UPCOMING—Have Prazipro lined up and ready to go once we come out of copper in about 10-14 days.
• Anyone else doing anything weird?
  • We saw the goby do a couple of flashes Friday morning (4 days ago) but it has not done it again since.
  • This very firefish had some white, stringy poop early on, but we have not seen that in awhile.
  • Early on, we saw each clown get the jitters/twitch. Not constantly, just here and there. But I believe they were in the presence of the other clown when they did it. It sounds like this might be something clowns do when showing submission to the dominant clown? So it very well could be that they were pairing up and figuring each other out.
• How are you doing your quarantine? Following the QT protocol by @Humblefish. I am also documenting the process.

This has been the only issue during quarantine. We haven't had any drunken swimmers; no white spots on anyone; no filmy substances; no powerhead swimming; yes there was some white, stringy poop, but it wasn't out of control, was treated and has seemingly gone away. If it weren't for this guy flashing, I'd really feel confident about putting everyone in the DT when the time comes here in a few weeks. Hoping the Prazi will help, but not sure.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Wow - very comprehensive post, that makes things a lot easier regarding playing "twenty questions".

An old saying " A mammal with an itch may just have dry skin, but a fish with an itch is sick".

When I see flashing like that, I normally lean towards flukes. Gryrodactylus gill flukes are small, and after getting hit with FW, may look like tiny balls of protoplasm, even under a microscope. Yes, I would have expected the FW dip to provide some relief (but not cure of course). Also, firefish are not typically of the species that are big problems with flukes.

Prazipro will help if it is flukes. One other (remote) possibility that I can't rule out - some tanks develop populations of "micropredator" copepods - they bite the fish and make them flash. I normally see that in long-established tanks, not in a QT.

Jay

 

[Bob Wiley]

Interesting, thanks for the feedback!

And yeah, I'm anticipating the Prazi not alleviating this and plotting next steps beyond that. If it's not flukes, then the next lowest hanging fruit would be... bacterial infection? I'm not sure if the meds I have can cover treatment for that. I have Copper, Metroplex, Focus, Prazipro and Ruby Reef Rally on hand. Can get more, but obviously knowing what to get is better than feeling around in the dark.

Or maybe get some Methylene Blue and give it a dip in that? If anything, that could rule out the ammonia angle.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I just assumed ammonia wasn’t a concern, but really, I don’t trust the badges too much. What would the methylene blue do for ammonia? It is used to treat methemoglobinema from nitrite poisoning, but I never heard of it used for ammonia.
I would not be inclined to treat the fish with antibiotics for flashing, in the absence of other symptoms.
Jay

 

[Rickybobby]

Mine did the same thing no spots or showing any signs of parasites and is in qt at 2.0ppm coppersafe

 

[Bob Wiley]

Mine did the same thing no spots or showing any signs of parasites and is in qt at 2.0ppm coppersafe

So it's still in QT? I wonder if the flashing is a response to copper sensitivity? I don't believe I've read anything about these fish being sensitive to copper...

I just assumed ammonia wasn’t a concern, but really, I don’t trust the badges too much. What would the methylene blue do for ammonia? It is used to treat methemoglobinema from nitrite poisoning, but I never heard of it used for ammonia.
I would not be inclined to treat the fish with antibiotics for flashing, in the absence of other symptoms.
Jay

I've seen MB mentioned around here as treatment for ammonia burn—
"Bath treatment: Methylene Blue treats ammonia burn, cuts, cyanide poisoning. Excellent “first response” treatment for a sick fish."

Medications to keep on hand

These are the bare essentials I recommend for quarantining: Anti-parasitic: Copper Power with a Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) for testing. Treats Ich & velvet. Anti-parasitic: Metronidazole (e.g. Seachem Metroplex); treats brook & uronema. Dewormer: Prazipro or API General Cure...

www.reef2reef.com

another—

Methylene blue has a lot of uses. Yeah it is great for treating fish with ammonia and nitrate poisoning but it’s also anti fungal, anti parasitic, disinfectant, and great for getting oxygen back into the blood stream.

and—

When I have a fish that has some rapid breathing gill problems like ammonia burn or flukes. The ammonia burn can also shut down the eating too. I'd consider placing the fish into a bath with methylene blue. It will help the fish's gills to transpire O2 and if there are other issues, it has a bit of an antiseptic/antibiotic like ability to help unseen problems.

Dosing instructions for using 2.303% Methylene Blue solution:

1) 30 min bath (preferred): 1 teaspoon (5 ml) per 5 gallons.

2) In a quarantine tank: 1 teaspoon (5 ml) per 10 gallons every other day for 10 days with water changes before each treatment.

I digress... but that's where I was coming from with using MB for ammonia burn.

HOWEVER, let's look at a few things—

• I don't see any rapid breathing by this fish
• This fish is a healthy eater. A really healthy eater
• It is an active swimmer, too. And it will come to greet me at the surface with the clowns when feeding.
• I've done frequent water changes on this tank. If ammonia buildup was a problem you'd expect to see the fish calm down after each WC. Instead I see no difference in its behavior.
• None of the other fish have displayed such prolonged flashing behavior. Only 1 of the other fish has flashed, and that was for a brief period one morning, days ago.

Given what @Rickybobby said above, maybe the best course of action is to just wait and see how the fish responds after coming out of copper in a week or so. Maybe this behavior will correct itself once out of copper and/or Prazi and it's just in normal water.

 

[Rickybobby]

My fire fish only was spotted flashing once. Hasn’t done. It since seems perfectly fine and eating like a pig. Not a spot on him

 

[Bob Wiley]

Just a quick update—
This fish is has been out of copper for a few weeks, has gone through a couple rounds of General Cure and is still flashing. However, we've noticed it is only doing it now when it is feeding time. It will dart towards one of the pipes and flash off of it. I'm not sure at the moment if this is just an excitement thing because of the food in the water, or if the smoothness of the pipes allows it to do this without worry.

My concern is when it gets to the DT. It is full of rocks and sand with nothing smooth to flash off of. So will this behavior just go by the wayside once we move it into the DT? I'm not really sure what else I can treat it with. And no one else in the tank is flashing.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Difficult to forecast what will happen in the DT. What is the total time for this fish in quarantine? I’m thinking more than 6 weeks? I’d say whatever the issue is, it wouldn’t be contagious.

Jay

 

[Bob Wiley]

Correct, it has been in QT for 71 days at this point

 

[Bob Wiley]

Whatever the issue, it's a moot point now.

This guy perished overnight. I didn't have high hopes after finishing GC dosing earlier this week and he went back to being lethargic with some bouts of swimming (and flashing). It seemed like after I took the clowns out of QT he just gave up entirely. It's a shame because his dorsal fin was really growing back nicely and I was looking forward to seeing him back to normal and in full color under the bright lights of the DT.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry - it looks thinner than it did early on, wonder if it was eating well enough to maintain body mass?
Jay

 

[Bob Wiley]

Yep, that was part of the concern. I just recently started to compare pics of him all through this timeline to see if I could correlate it with something occurring in the tank. My gut still says it was the Prazipro.

 

[pecsofpersia]

This really sucks. I just lost one in QT, too. Treated with Copper Power for two days at around 1.5 ppm before it passed. I was treating its Ich. Ordered general cure but after seeing this, idk what to do? Antibiotics? Probiotic food? Anyone have any success with those?

 

[pecsofpersia]

I just tested some of the water and see high ammonia. That could’ve contributed too