The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)

[Reefahholic]

If one adds an unnatural organic carbon source, carbohydrates, to a reef tank , before doing so one should know how much is too much. If you can not answer the question, please reconsider using it.

So how much is too much in your Opinion?
As far as I know, the only accurate way to assess how much carbon is in the system is to do a Triton N-DOC analysis. What carbon source do you prefer, and how do you determine where your valves are at?

Can you provide a picture of your system so I can observe what a balanced carbon dosed system should look like.?

I think that Glenn’s system’s are a good representation of what that would be.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

So how much is too much in your Opinion?
As far as I know, the only accurate way to assess how much carbon is in the system is to do a Triton N-DOC analysis. What carbon source do you prefer, and how do you determine where your valves are at?

Can you provide a picture of your system so I can observe what a balanced carbon dosed system should look like.?

I think that Glenn’s system’s are a good representation of what that would be.

The only good carbon source is part of balanced feed.
Using carbohydrates any amount may be too much. Dosing carbohydrates based on the nitrate level? What is the connection? Fast growing heterotrophic bacteria using free organic carbon use ammonia as a nitrogen source.
There is no good reason for adding carbohydrates to a reef system.

Why nitrate can build up in a well lit aquarium and produced nitrate is not consumed or and exported?

Good nitrogen management starts with the protein content of the food added.
Organics contain a certain amount of carbon, the food contains a certain amount of proteins ( nitrogen) Managing the protein content of the food added the C/N ratio of the feed can be adjusted. The C/N ratio ( protein content) of the feed will be determent for the amount of ammonia to be reduced by autotrophs after remineralization of the organics, and for the need for nitrification to reduce toxic ammonia.
After each life cycle less organic carbon will be available in the system due to CO2 export ( energy production), therefor it is important to import carbon in the system, this way using up all produced inorganic nutrients.


Back to basics, the balance between consumers, reducers and producers, and with respect for the 3 pillars supporting the carrying capacity; heterotrophic, - autotrophic - , and photo-autotrophic ammonia reduction.
Adding too much organic carbon may be responsible for removing pillars 2 and 3 .
How much is too much?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The only good carbon source is part of balanced feed.
Using carbohydrates any amount may be too much. Dosing carbohydrates based on the nitrate level? What is the connection? Fast growing heterotrophic bacteria using free organic carbon use ammonia as a nitrogen source.
There is no good reason for adding carbohydrates to a reef system.

Why nitrate can build up in a well lit aquarium and produced nitrate is not consumed or and exported?

Good nitrogen management starts with the protein content of the food added.
Organics contain a certain amount of carbon, the food contains a certain amount of proteins ( nitrogen) Managing the protein content of the food added the C/N ratio of the feed can be adjusted. The C/N ratio ( protein content) of the feed will be determent for the amount of ammonia to be reduced by autotrophs after remineralization of the organics, and for the need for nitrification to reduce toxic ammonia.
After each life cycle less organic carbon will be available in the system due to CO2 export ( energy production), therefor it is important to import carbon in the system, this way using up all produced inorganic nutrients.

An unjustified opinion, IMO.

 

[Reefahholic]

My main reason for dosing carbon is to load the bacteria with PO4. Corals cannot consume PO4 as easily as NO3. From what I’ve observed today and in the past is that most carbon dosed system’s experience improved coral growth and health. However, it can also get the reefer in big trouble. The person needs to be very familiar with the product, and how it effect’s the chemistry. Overdosing is less likely as long as your dosing off of nutrient consumption. I’ve never seen an experienced reefer overdose carbon this way. I’ve seen several impressive tanks running Pellets or V/S. Maybe @glennf can explain how he handles this issue of dosing Carbon when nutrients completely bottom out. For me personally I’d stop immediately especially if visual cue’s are present.


I’d like to think that if your nutrients are zero it’s most likely a good idea to hold the carbon dosing. Similarly, if your Alkalinity value was 14 dKH, you’d probably want to stop the ALK dosing temporarily.

 

[glennf]

My main reason for dosing carbon is to load the bacteria with PO4. Corals cannot consume PO4 as easily as NO3. From what I’ve observed today and in the past is that most carbon dosed system’s experience improved coral growth and health. However, it can also get the reefer in big trouble. The person needs to be very familiar with the product, and how it effect’s the chemistry. Overdosing is less likely as long as your dosing off of nutrient consumption. I’ve never seen an experienced reefer overdose carbon this way. I’ve seen several impressive tanks running Pellets or V/S. Maybe @glennf can explain how he handles this issue of dosing Carbon when nutrients completely bottom out. For me personally I’d stop immediately especially if visual cue’s are present.


I’d like to think that if your nutrients are zero it’s most likely a good idea to hold the carbon dosing. Similarly, if your Alkalinity value was 14 dKH, you’d probably want to stop the ALK dosing temporarily.

In DSR you Never stop dosing Carbon and iron! DSR was developed as a compleet set of tools to counter any problem related to waterquality. It's one of the pilars of it's succes.

When nitrate or phosphate bottoms out you start reducing the iron and carbon dosing down to D1. This way you keep it available and feed your bacteria population. If this reduction is not enough to raise NO3/PO4 you start adding NO3+/PO4+ to keep it available.
Feeding the bacteria is essential, they provide the stabilty to your system and are also a food source when nutrients may seem to be low.

Note:
It might seem a contradition, but by adding carbon and nutrient at the same time you get some redundancy in you reefsystem.

 

[Reefahholic]

In DSR you Never stop dosing Carbon and iron! DSR was developed as a compleet set of tools to counter any problem related to waterproblems. It's one of the pilars of it's succes.

When nitrate or phosphate bottoms out you start reducing the iron and carbon dosing down to D1. This way you keep it available and feed your bacteria population. If this reduction is not enough to raise NO3/PO4 you start adding NO3+/PO4+ to keep it available.
Feeding the bacteria is essential, they provide the stabilty to your system and are also a food source when nutrients may seem to be low.

Note:
It might seem a contradition, but by adding carbon and nutrient at the same time you get some redundancy in you reefsystem.

Completely agree 100%.

 

[Reefahholic]

When nitrate or phosphate bottoms out you start reducing the iron and carbon dosing down to D1.

Glenn, I know Iron plays a very important role with coral health and also algae. It’s a tricky element to dial in as it’s consumed so rapidly. Iron and Manganese are both heavily consumed by algae in Refugiums and in the tank. When the Refugium is harvested, the consumption slows down.

Do you start reducing the Iron to slow down the algae growth and reduce consumption so nutrients rise? Is this why you include iron with carbon together when reducing down to D1? Or is there another reason?

 

[glennf]

Glenn, I know Iron plays a very important role with coral health and also algae. It’s a tricky element to dial in as it’s consumed so rapidly. Iron and Manganese are both heavily consumed by algae in Refugiums and in the tank. When the Refugium is harvested, the consumption slows down.

Do you start reducing the Iron to slow down the algae growth and reduce consumption so nutrients rise? Is this why you include iron with carbon together when reducing down to D1? Or is there another reason?

Elements that boast algae also benefit coral health. So to make these elements stay available for the corals we make sure the cleaning crew is up to the task and Don't let the algea get the upperhand.

This is the same reason why i don't use algea filter or refugium and dose Fe, Mn, NO3, PO4.

 

[Reefahholic]

Elements that boast algae also benefit coral health. So to make these elements stay available for the corals we make sure the cleaning crew is up to the task and Don't let the algea get the upperhand.

This is the same reason why i don't use algea filter or refugium and dose Fe, Mn, NO3, PO4.

That makes a lot of sense! Do you test N&P in the AM or PM?


I have one last question for you since you are a reef Wizard.

How do you deal with a Dinoflagellate outbreak. I have a case of Ostreopsis that has been very persistent and stubborn. I can get it down to where it’s almost gone but I can’t quite get it out completely.

 

[glennf]

That makes a lot of sense! Do you test N&P in the AM or PM?


I have one last question for you since you are a reef Wizard.

How do you deal with a Dinoflagellate outbreak. I have a case of Ostreopsis that has been very persistent and stubborn. I can get it down to where it’s almost gone but I can’t quite get it out completely.

Time don't matter to me, i don't have a routine for it. I do whatever pleases me. For me it's the only way to go, because this hobby is about enjoying it. Not to tie me down. I am not a scientist, just being a practical reefer.
That been said: From a scientific stand you should do it at the same time each day.

I never got to deal with dino's, because i always kept my nutrients level higher than most reefers do.
In conjuction with the dosings and the powerfilter this balances the system and corals are kept healthy and growing. This dynamic seems to remove all waste products which may cause dino's and cyano to thrive.

Recently i had my nutrients bottomout in one tank which cause STN on corals. The dying tissue was food for Dino's. By raising nutrients the corals recovered, but the dino's always found a foodsource, because the presence lof large amount of dino's is detrimental for corals.

The step for my own dino procedure is:
1- Lower lighting to relieve stress from the system. More light enhances all processes (especially pests)
2- evaluate flow for the removal af wasteproducts www.DSRreefing.com/stream
3- Raise nutrient to adviced levels http://dsrreefing.com/compactcalc/
4- daily replace powerfilter fleece!
5- stir/turkeyblaster sandbend after replacing filterfleece
6- remove whole sandbed if problem persist
7- finally be patient and stay on track. Battling Dino's require a long breath and a change of old habbits.

 

[Reefahholic]

Time don't matter to me, i don't have a routine for it. I do whatever pleases me. For me it's the only way to go, because this hobby is about enjoying it. Not to tie me down. I am not a scientist, just being a practical reefer.
That been said: From a scientific stand you should do it at the same time each day.

I never got to deal with dino's, because i always kept my nutrients level higher than most reefers do.
In conjuction with the dosings and the powerfilter this balances the system and corals are kept healthy and growing. This dynamic seems to remove all waste products which may cause dino's and cyano to thrive.

Recently i had my nutrients bottomout in one tank which cause STN on corals. The dying tissue was food for Dino's. By raising nutrients the corals recovered, but the dino's always found a foodsource, because the presence lof large amount of dino's is detrimental for corals.

The step for my own dino procedure is:
1- Lower lighting to relieve stress from the system. More light enhances all processes (especially pests)
2- evaluate flow for the removal af wasteproducts www.DSRreefing.com/stream
3- Raise nutrient to adviced levels http://dsrreefing.com/compactcalc/
4- daily replace powerfilter fleece!
5- stir/turkeyblaster sandbend after replacing filterfleece
6- remove whole sandbed if problem persist
7- finally be patient and stay on track. Battling Dino's require a long breath and a change of old habbits.

Thank you for that Glenn. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer the questions. I have a few power filters that I copied from your videos and website. I did some DIY and actually had one designed for ease of use. I use the same setup with the gutter guard and rubber bands. I need to put one on today. If I remember correctly it did help with the Dino’s previously, but my skimmer was not making foam so I removed it and use it as a tool when I clean the tank. I will put it back for now. They work quite well.

My N&P targets are close to the same ranges you recommend with DSR.

I lowered the light intensity again a few days ago, and reduced the duration form 12 to 10 hrs. I may bring it down to 8 as I saw a big difference with the decreased photo period. I also reduced the reds to 10% and whites to 24%.

When I test N&P I notice higher values in early morning, and less at peak photo period. This is why I was wondering if you base your N&P dosing off a certain time of day. I test at 5:00pm and dose off of those Values which are less, but I often wonder if I’m overdosing the system. Like you said, it’s best to pick a time that is convenient for you and 5:00am (or any time in the morning is not good for me). I do try to test consistently at same time of day for ALK, PO4, & NO3.

 

[glennf]

Don't worry to much about the intraday fluctuations. Just make the nutrients available for the corals to gain strength and keep the clearupcrew strong to eliminate algae from consuming all goodies.

Nice job on the PF. Keep in mind the PF in the display is 100% more efficient. It's a ugly thing, but better a ugly thing (that can be camouflaged) than an ugly/ deminishing tank.

My tought an plaque is that the basics are off. I try not to find the reason of every single problem, instead i make sure the basics are working. Once I was lucky enought to have found a base that's proven to be working , so i stick to that. Just being practical.

 

[Reefahholic]

keep the clearupcrew strong to eliminate algae from consuming all goodies.

I have about 70 Astraea’s, 2 large Mexican Turbo’s, and 4 peppermint shrimp. I got rid of my blue leg hermit’s. They continued to attack the weak. I had two other species of snails that slowly died off from the Dino’s.

Keep in mind the PF in the display is 100% more efficient.

100% agree

My tought an plaque is that the basics are off.

instead i make sure the basics are working. Once I was lucky enought to have found a base that's proven to be working

I’m definitely lacking on the basics. I tried to avoid all pest’s in this system. That was a mistake on my part. This led to a sterile system and I finally added 10lbs of LR to help it along.


I got the Powerfilter in tonight. They only thing I don’t like is that it can drop PO4. Hopefully it will remove some of the Dino’s along with the bad bacteria. They clean the water extremely well, but sometimes I worry about it being too clean.

 

[glennf]

I have about 70 Astraea’s, 2 large Mexican Turbo’s, and 4 peppermint shrimp. I got rid of my blue leg hermit’s. They continued to attack the weak. I had two other species of snails that slowly died off from the Dino’s.

What about fish and urchin's ? They are the best!!!

100% agree



I’m definitely lacking on the basics. I tried to avoid all pest’s in this system. That was a mistake on my part. This led to a sterile system and I finally added 10lbs of LR to help it along.

Don't worry about a to sterile system. All my system were started with dead rock. Bacteria wil find their way to the system once you start feeding the system with Carbon. This is the first thing i start with with a new system. The system can also be Inoculated with siphoned sludge from a good working system.
Http://dsrreefing.com/dsrstart/

I got the Powerfilter in tonight. They only thing I don’t like is that it can drop PO4. Hopefully it will remove some of the Dino’s along with the bad bacteria. They clean the water extremely well, but sometimes I worry about it being too clean.

Don't worry to much about a too clean system. It's easier to adf PO4 than remove!
Clear water is always prefered over turbid, fault or polluted water

 

[Reefahholic]

What about fish and urchin's ? They are the best!!!

I have a medium fish load. Did some have urchins, but they never really did anything which was surprising. They finally came out at night, but never ate any of the algae on the rocks. I think I should have bought a different species.

Bacteria wil find their way to the system once you start feeding the system with Carbon.

I’ve been carbon dosing so hopefully it speeds up the process.

Clear water is always prefered over turbid, fault or polluted water.

Do you ever see a drop is N or P? Does it ever seem to strip the water too much at times are reduce the effectiveness of your skimmer? I love the clarity the Powerfilter brings and also the increased light penetration.

 

[glennf]

I have a medium fish load. Did some have urchins, but they never really did anything which was surprising. They finally came out at night, but never ate any of the algae on the rocks. I think I should have bought a different species.

I get all surgeons fish i can keep because the are nice and useful in maintaining tank . I e. Olivaceus, flavescens, dejardini but also the tricky leucosternon an japonicus.

The globus mespilla and tripneustes gratilla are great urchins, but you need to fix your coral to the rock.

I’ve been carbon dosing so hopefully it speeds up the process.

It will and it will stabilize your system over time.

Do you ever see a drop is N or P? Does it ever seem to strip the water too much at times are reduce the effectiveness of your skimmer? I love the clarity the Powerfilter brings and also the increased light penetration.

It does drop when you feed less or corals start growing, but than it's so easy to use another tool of the DSR system just add waht you measure is deficient. If you are on a high carbon dosage d10+ bring it back to d3-d5 average dosing and keep it stable with. This way you have a rocksold system.
Since 2018 i gradually remove all my skimmers from the tanks and never placed them back. Now i have proven for myself beyound any doubt the system is sustainble also without any skimming. Just a powerfilter, good flow and dosing the right Carbon mixtures.
Light penetration is everything to keep SPS healthy and color.
Other species are less demanding or may even do beter with turbid water. So there are choices to be made......

 

[Reefahholic]

I get all surgeons fish i can keep because the are nice and useful in maintaining tank . I e. Olivaceus, flavescens, dejardini but also the tricky leucosternon an japonicus.

The globus mespilla and tripneustes gratilla are great urchins, but you need to fix your coral to the rock.

It will and it will stabilize your system over time.

It does drop when you feed less or corals start growing, but than it's so easy to use another tool of the DSR system just add waht you measure is deficient. If you are on a high carbon dosage d10+ bring it back to d3-d5 average dosing and keep it stable with. This way you have a rocksold system.
Since 2018 i gradually remove all my skimmers from the tanks and never placed them back. Now i have proven for myself beyound any doubt the system is sustainble also without any skimming. Just a powerfilter, good flow and dosing the right Carbon mixtures.
Light penetration is everything to keep SPS healthy and color.
Other species are less demanding or may even do beter with turbid water. So there are choices to be made......

No skimmer! Wow, that is amazing. I do often wonder how many trace elements they actually strip. My ICP seem to come back pretty good. Only a few elements needing correction. I’d be really scared to remove the skimmer due to oxygenation. Not sure how much of a difference it actually make’s. Since my systems always run low nutrients, it would be interesting to remove the skimmer and ramp up the carbon dosing. D10++

 

[glennf]

No skimmer! Wow, that is amazing. I do often wonder how many trace elements they actually strip. My ICP seem to come back pretty good. Only a few elements needing correction. I’d be really scared to remove the skimmer due to oxygenation. Not sure how much of a difference it actually make’s. Since my systems always run low nutrients, it would be interesting to remove the skimmer and ramp up the carbon dosing. D10++

IMO the oxygen exchange contribution due to the skimmer in modern day dosing system are neglectable. I have one system with a completely closed lid running now for nearly a year. No issue's with fish or low PH. This is nearly a closed loop system. The only thing i (deliberately) add into the system are food and dosings (feeding and regulating the ecosystem) and removing excess processes material (poop) with the powerfilter. Everything inbetween is nourishing the ecosystem.

If you don't bring in excess stuff yourself you don't need to put effort to remove them either. In that context when your are using a CrX you do need the skimmer to remove the excess CO2. A byproduct from the CrX. So oldskool systems do need the skimmer for oxygenation.

An advantage for closed lid systems is less evaporation, less humidity problems, less energy consumption. IMO more efficient than without a cover.

 

[Reefahholic]

IMO the oxygen exchange contribution due to the skimmer in modern day dosing system are neglectable. I have one system with a completely closed lid running now for nearly a year. No issue's with fish or low PH. This system nearly a closed loop system. The only thing i (deliberately) add into the system are food and dosings (feeding and regulating the ecosystem) and removing excess processes material (poop) with the powerfilter. Everything inbetween is nourishing the ecosystem.

If you don't bring in excess stuff yourself you don't need to put effort to remove them either. In that context when your are using a CrX you do need the skimmer to remove the excess CO2. A byproduct from the CrX. So oldskool systems do need the skimmer for oxygenation.

An advantage for closed lid systems is less evaporation, less humidity problems, less energy consumption. IMO more efficient than without a cover.

That is amazing Glenn. The skimmer does also pull some trace elements out. From what I’ve seen it’s not a lot, but I often wonder would it would be like w/o the skimmer for 6 months. I did try this before and the organics built up, but I feel that now I could easily handle the adjustment especially with bacteria and carbon. If I didn’t run the CaRx currently I’d pull the skimmer now and try it for a while.

 

[glennf]

It't very important to use the powerfilter in conjuction with carbon dosing to get the maximum result.
I have finetuned this method and defined a standaard with the dosings so users have a higher chance of succes.

When all rules are followed as laid out in the DSR basics, the omissions of the skimmer can be permanently. Just like i have been doing since 2019 with all of my tanks.

Www.DSRreefing.com/technics