The myth that LED lights last forever

[Shon]

You will still want to watch out about running them at 100%. Just because the heatsinks aren't hot doesn't mean the silica isn't. There is a physical limit how much heat can be transferred from the chip to the animinium layer. Computers can measure silica temperature of the processor directly. Some intels are running at 90°C while the heatspreader is still touchable.

LEDs rarely die of high voltage. You would need to zap them with 1000V to destroy them, but with just 4V on a 3.2V led there's so much heat produced, the chip will burn in seconds and no kind of heatsinks will save them.

Yes, but I mean 100% will be under 12w, while they take a recommended 48w. Should produce very little heat.

Edit: these are the strips, 6.5k w/ heatsink
Edit2: forgot link; https://growdaddyleds.com/products/...ds-with-450mm-heatsink?variant=32483316531255
Edit3: Driver; https://www.jameco.com/z/ODLV-45-48...7-LED-Driver-Driver-with-Dimming_2264271.html

 

[Bpb]

A significant portion of direct heat transfer from MH (compared to LED or FL) is IR heating the water contents and tank areas that it strikes, not conduction or convection.

The fans are forcing evaporation to counteract the IR thermal gain, not prevent it by ‘blowing‘ heat away before it is absorbed by the water.

I’ve touched on this so many times but it generally gets ignored. I stopped commenting on the matter because I didn’t want to appear to be picking on Grandis, but you mentioned something I’ve said and agree with as well.

I too ran halides for years, and the fan trick is almost entirely ineffective if blowing parallel to the water. The bulbs are not blowing hot air that can be removed by another breeze. It’s radiant heat. Air presented parallel to the water/perpendicular to the photon emission does very little. My tank temps climbed up into the high 80’s when using fans in this manner.

Once I pointed the fans directly at the water to force evaporation, the real temp reduction happened. Fan-Air alone dropped water temps 6-7 degrees….but that came at a cost. I lost 2+ gallons of water to evaporation a day in my 90 gallon tank, and in a 1600 sqft house, that created an 85%+ humidity level inside the house. Mildew in all the windowsills, rust all over anything metal in the house, the AC running constantly, and a generally disgusting and muggy feeling.

Even if the corals grew marginally faster, it wasn’t worth the strain it was putting on the physical structure of my home and the comfort of its inhabitants.

The next utility billing cycle after I switched to led lighting was just over $100 cheaper just from air conditioning reduction and a slight reduction in light wattage. Humidity levels fell to the low 50’s where they should be for an indoor dwelling in my region.

Those are REAL experiences. Not “what led companies want you to believe”. That was my actual observation. This is what I base my understanding of the hobby on and what I choose to use. Not what tullio says, not what BRS says, and not what some particular brand claims they can do.

I have a reasonable working understanding of what spectrum my lights emit, what par levels and spectrum my corals will grow and thrive under, and an ability to measure intensity. That is what I use to apply light to my tank. Not sales pitches.

 

[buruskeee]

how many led fixtures are required to get 200-300 par at the bottom of a 30" tall tank? Double what the manufacturer's suggest you need(?) So if 3 250w halides get it done, what is that 5 or 6 xr30's(900-1200w), sounds less efficient(equal or more power consumption).

Are you just guessing? This is the problem.

Two XR30 at 70% 8” high will get 300 PAR across the sand of a 4x2ft tank 30” deep.

That’s 300W of power (100% is 200W each).

Next time you “stab” at it, use data - there’s tons of PAR data out there.

why make a comparison if you don’t even know what you’re comparing?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Once I pointed the fans directly at the water to force evaporation, the real temp reduction happened. Air alone dropped temps 6-7 degrees….but that came at a cost. I lost 2+ gallons of water a day in my 90 gallon tank, and in a 1600 sqft house, that created an 85%+ humidity level inside the house. Mildew in all the windowsills, rust all over anything metal in the house, the AC running constantly, and a generally disgusting and muggy feeling.

I started off with 2 150W DE halides and had them for the first several years. Between the halides and the (2) Blueline Ti Titanium Velocity mag pumps (water cooled) I had a heck of a heat problem. BTW those were the absolute most silent pumps I have EVER seen. Amazing, but water cooled and the heat would cause calcium buildup in the titanium volute.

~140 gallon total between tank and sump and 6' tall skimmer.

In spring and fall when the AC was not running but the outside temps were not hot, I had to evaporate roughly 3-4 gallons per day to keep temps at 82 or less. The fans were on a RANCO but ran ~16 hours per day. That is well over 8,000 BTUs of cooling per gallon evaporated. So at ~140 gallons that is ~1100 BTU per degree, or roughly 7 degrees X ~3.5 gallons or 24 degrees delta over the 12 hours the lights ran... That is a LOT of heat removal.

The dehumidifier helped but added more heat. I tried a 1/2 horse (or maybe 1hp, i can't remember) chiller, but due to the room size it fought itself and the office and fishroom would be at 80F and the rest of the house 68. It was insanity. Even in the summer when the AC was cranking at a 90% duty cycle, if she decided to open windows for fresh air, the tank would skyrocket to 84 within an hour.

I had to ditch both Ti pumps and the T5 actinic bulb (LEDs were not available at the time) and move to a ReefFlo Dart gold to keep the Halide temps in check. This got me to maybe 1 gallon of evap per day during srping and fall and the AC was able to handle the summer and the cold basement the winter.

The tank ran that way (I think 2005 or something until 2014?) with the Halides, heat and evaporation. I moved to the 3x radions a friend gave me, and as much as I loved the halides, never looked back.

 

[Doctorgori]

deleted ( mentioned another forum…ooops)

(psst, admittedly a lil argumentative drama never hurt anyone lol)

 

[Reefering1]

Are you just guessing? This is the problem.

Two XR30 at 70% 8” high will get 300 PAR across the sand of a 4x2ft tank 30” deep.

That’s 300W of power (100% is 200W each).

Next time you “stab” at it, use data - there’s tons of PAR data out there.

why make a comparison if you don’t even know what you’re comparing?

I would say that I'm estimating, not guessing. I assumed that others would infer that if I'm saying 3 250w halide fixtures, we aren't taking about a 4x2 tank(duh, OBVIOUSLY!!) And trust me I did plenty research on the xr30s before deciding to dump 3 grand on halide bulbs. I was prepared to spend that on the xr's. Furthermore, what kind of spread/shadowing will they produce at 8" above waterline? Without looking it up again, yes guessing, I thought it was closer to 14-16" up for my desires.
So before guessing and taking a stab at a opportunity to respond to every comment, try reading and comprehending the circumstances/application surrounding the presented scenario! Imo, that's what's wrong with some people(like you) ; they don't

 

[oreo54]

Metal halides shadow...
Without tank dimensions and possible height restrictions nobody can estimate coverage.
Xr-15's can be more easily spread on large surface area tanks.

 

[Reefering1]

Metal halides shadow...

Behind every light is a shadow right! Its just less because of the reflector

 

[Dburr1014]

Behind every light is a shadow right! Its just less because of the reflector

Or more leds

 

[oreo54]

Behind every light is a shadow right! Its just less because of the reflector

Sure,unfortunately people act like there are none though makes it hard to explain all those added t5's led strips

I'm under no illusion that mh's generally are cheaper but it is a case by case decision on which tech suits which individual.

 

[Reefering1]

Sure,unfortunately people act like there are none though makes it hard to explain all those added t5's led strips

I agree. If only reef leds had a sphere shaped bulb, emitting in every angle, with a reflector bouncing it back in 20 different angles: then bit wouldn't be part of the discussion

 

[oreo54]

I agree. If only reef leds had a sphere shaped bulb, emitting in every angle, with a reflector bouncing it back in 20 different angles: then bit wouldn't be part of the discussion

That bulb is relatively small. Mh's are still considered point light sources. See " shimmer"
Reflector just creates MANY small points.

Led diffusers pretty much fix the problem...at a cost.
T5's are the fix.but you lose the " 3d effect" and "shimmer".

 

[Reefering1]

Gotta love those caustic lines!! I put diffusers under hydra64s because they look like a crazy disco party. What would it take to accommodate all needs? Maybe a diffused concave panel that covers the entire tank(like a t5 fixture) with a thousand leds and one big one for the calm shimmer ?

 

[oreo54]

Gotta love those caustic lines!! I put diffusers under hydra64s because they look like a crazy disco party. What would it take to accommodate all needs? Maybe a diffused concave panel that covers the entire tank(like a t5 fixture) with a thousand leds and one big one for the calm shimmer ?

Both the Sky and Coralcare addressed this issue.
So did people that throw a Kessil into their mix

 

[Reefering1]

Idk why some leds guys get so upset that others disagree, you already won. Halides are practically dead, can't buy new fixtures, bulbs are running out- it would take a miracle to come back. Unless you stockpiled equipment and bulbs, you're **** out of luck if you want mh

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Idk why some leds guys get so upset that others disagree, you already won. Halides are practically dead, can't buy new fixtures, bulbs are running out- it would take a miracle to come back. Unless you stockpiled equipment and bulbs, you're **** out of luck if you want mh

That goes to my point from yesterday, some people love the thrill of the hunt, or to convince manufacturers to commission a limited run...

The last few pages seems like one side is trying to convince the other side that they're not crazy for the lights they use.

 

[oreo54]

Idk why some leds guys get so upset that others disagree....

Sorry I consider it more the other way.
Consider a statement such as this:

Can you compare a shimmering from a "full spectrum" LEDs' fixture to a Iwasaki 6500K halide???

Well first off if you have a dead calm water surface neither shimmer
Is the shimmer from each point light source different, sure a bit.
Who judges what shimmer is " supposed" to look like?
Which is err " better"?
Ridiculous.

Glitter Lines: More Than Aesthetic?

This article will present some initial data from recent experiments relating to the physiological effects of glitter lines within aquaria, and also how our artificial glitter compares to that found in natural reefs.

reefs.com

Ocean " disco" not to mention orders of magnatude temporal par differences

 

[Reefering1]

I would love for all options to be readily available into the future. Imagine if today's technology was put into halides downsides.. seems far fetched and I have better things to do then try to convince anybody of anything. Sometimes I'll engage just for entertainment. My reef tank is my hobby, not the equipment they goes into it. I hope leds revolutionize in the next 20 years by the time I run out of bulbs. What ever happened to plasma, @oreo54 , that seemed promising

 

[Reefering1]

Sorry I consider it more the other way.
Consider a statement such as this:

Well first off if you have a dead calm water surface neither shimmer
Is the shimmer from each point light source different, sure a bit.
Who judges what shimmer is " supposed" to look like?
Which is err " better"?
Ridiculous.

Glitter Lines: More Than Aesthetic?

This article will present some initial data from recent experiments relating to the physiological effects of glitter lines within aquaria, and also how our artificial glitter compares to that found in natural reefs.

reefs.com

Ocean " disco" not to mention orders of magnatude temporal par differences

I would understand halide guys being upset, their preference is being lost. Led guys have nothing to be upset about.
You ever seen hydra64s with no diffuser and alot of surface movement? Its extreme. Literally looks like looking into a disco ball spinning. Distracting is a understatement, gives me a headache.( So I put diffusers under mine)

 

[oreo54]

I would love for all options to be readily available into the future. Imagine if today's technology was put into halides downsides.. seems far fetched and I have better things to do then try to convince anybody of anything. Sometimes I'll engage just for entertainment. My reef tank is my hobby, not the equipment they goes into it. I hope leds revolutionize in the next 20 years by the time I run out of bulbs. What ever happened to plasma, @oreo54 , that seemed promising

Same as mh's to a certain extent.
Looks ugly hanging from your ceiling .

Gavita Pro 270e LEP Grow (41.02 emitter) 277 Volt

Harness the power of the sun with the Gavita Pro 270e LEP. This fixture utilizes a new emitter that allows for a more compact fixture design. When it comes to lighting plants you need both quantity and quality. To further optimize the quality of your crop we introduced supplemental plasma light...

bloomponic.com

Sorry couldn't resist.
There is one actual study out there comparing sulfur plasma to led.

Think it just doesn't " fit" well for reef aquariums unless you are a farmer

To be honest there is sometimes no obvious rhyme or reason for things.
Take electrode-less fluorescent tubes fired up by microwaves
More efficient, longer life.. withering on the vine. Some euro co tried to market it for reef aquariums. Split color bulbs.
Afaict failed.