Velvet Frustration!

[Maritimer]

Kinda heartbroken right now ... I'm losing fish out of my QT left and right, when what I'm doing _should_ be saving them . . .


Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Reef, Fish-only, Quarantine tank: Quarantine
Aquarium water volume: 75 gallon tank
Filtration type: HOB - Two Fluval 110s
Lighting: "Hidden LED" bar over 1/2 of the tank
How long has the aquarium been established?: Couple of months?
Digital image of the aquarium under white light: See video (darker end) below

Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using)
Temperature: 77 - 80 F (Temp-gun)
pH: Not measured
Salinity / specific gravity: 1.022
Ammonia: 0
Copper Power: 2.52 (Hanna Copper HR)
Other parameters not measured

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? Yes - The butterfly in the video a couple of days ago, and a powder-blue tang last night. A red-sea flasher and orange back fairy wrasse are looking (behaving) very poorly.
Are any invertebrates affected? No
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4) See video below, shot on 12/11/2020
Are the affected fish still feeding? No
What remedies have you tried so far? Chelated copper (Copper Power) at 2.52ppm, Hanna-checked; API General Cure
Short video of the fish (linked YouTube videos work well)

Most fish are not showing Velvet spots - only increased respiration and declining overall health. Only the Power-Blue Tang showed spots at all.

In the video below, you can see the environment of my QT and the respiration rate of the Klein's butterfly:


~B.

 

[GoVols]

Bruce,
Sorry, buddy...;Sorry

@Jay Hemdal

help

 

[Maritimer]

Thanks ... It just seems to be going on far too long, with this level of copper in the water!

~B.

 

[Maritimer]

I'm not seeing the wrasses . . . and not looking forward to looking under and behind all the PVC.

Deep sadness.

How does _anyone_ manage to get away with putting fish directly into their display?!

It seems as though every group of fish I bring home has some deadly disease!!!

~B.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry - just seeing this now. Velvet can kill without any really apparent spots. I couldn't get a good respiration rate on the Klein's from the video, but it definitely is way too fast. I do not have an answer as to why it would be velvet with a full course of copper going on. Copper toxicity can causes symptoms that mimic velvet, but copper power is pretty safe, and then, the wrasse would have been affected first and the Kleins later on.

Are you confident that the GC was dosed correctly? I normally don't dose that at the same time as copper, but many people do.

Jay

 

[TheDragonsReef]

You may need more water flow to keep the water oxygenated. When treating with copper and other products oxygen levels drop. You can either add a large bubbler, a power head or a skimmer even

 

[Maritimer]

Thanks, Dragonsreef - I neglected to mention, there's also a powerhead in there with a venturi, running the length of the tank. Microbubbles rise to meet the flow from one of the Fluval/Aquaclears (each of which holds double sponges, nothing else), and then get pushed back into the water at the front of the tank.

@Jay Hemdal , I'm as confident as I can be about the GC - and the deaths didn't occur right after GC dosing. The wrasses and butterfly didn't show any spots - but the powderblue did. His spots had faded though, prior to additional decline and death.

I'm ... just ... incredibly frustrated right now - thank you for your thoughts here, and all that you do in this subforum. It's a challenge, for sure.

~B.

 

[RedFrog211]

I’m very sorry to hear about this... I don’t know if this would help at all, but if you have a microscope, maybe you can scrape the mucus membrane of one of the deceased fish and check for parasites. Like mentioned above, I don’t see how they could survive in those levels, but I guess it’s another thing we could check off the list? Did you use a Hanna ammonia tester?

 

[Maritimer]

Thanks, RedFrog211 - No 'scope of any real quality ... little plastic thing, shaped like a box. Haven't messed with it.

Ammonia check via an ammonia badge.

~B.

 

[MarshallB]

How long has the QT been set up? I will say I lost a few fish out of my QT system due to using a ammonia badge. Badge registered 0. But fish were declining heavily. Spots started showing up, respiratory rates were through the roof. They were acting very stressed. Tested the water by hand and Ammonia had spiked BIG time. I could have definately just got a bad batch of badges, but losing $200 from a bad one I don't think I can ever trust them again.

Not saying that is your problem, but its worth a double check.

 

[RedFrog211]

My ocellaris started showing signs of ammonia burn (red gills, rapid breathing and falling over onto side) although my API test showed 0. I put some prime in over night, and by morning she was swimming normal. I now have a Salifert test kit, and will be upgrading to Hanna after the holidays- highly recommend

 

[Maritimer]

MarshallB and RedFrog211, thank you ... will have to look into it, I suppose . . . The only ammonia test kit I currently have is an old API.

The QT system has been set up for several months at least, just being fed.

~B.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

MarshallB and RedFrog211, thank you ... will have to look into it, I suppose . . . The only ammonia test kit I currently have is an old API.

The QT system has been set up for several months at least, just being fed.

~B.

I would echo the others, I don't rely on ammonia badges myself. That said, the QT being set up for a few months likely means that wasn't the issue. I'm glad the other person asked you about the aeration, I jumped right past that and went to disease, but good that you are able to rule that out.

Sorry I couldn't be of any help. Going forward, I wonder if you could buy pre-quarantined fish and then still run them through quarantine? I like that process because the vendor then takes on some of that early mortality that all newly imported marine fish see (over the years, I've tracked that and found values of 25 to 60% mortality in the first 45 days for typical pet store fish).

Jay

 

[Wen]

I’m sorry for your losses. It’s so frustrating, I’ve been there.
What day at 2.25 copper power are you on? One thing that made me feel better was doing water changes with copper power at the same level. It takes a few extra test regeants, but for peace of mind was worth it.
Another thing I did was pull fish out of the copper when there was obvious trouble. This requires a second or even third Qt. I used a 30 gal brute and even a 5 gal bucket.
Keep your eyes peeled for bacterial infections next and have meds on hand.
Be sure to feed lightly multiple times a day, especially selcon or/and beta glucan infused foods.
Best wishes.

 

[Maritimer]

@Jay Hemdal , I've been thinking along pre-quarantined lines as well ... more expensive at first glance, but maybe I'd only have to purchase any given species _once_, rather than two or three times, in order to get one safely into my display (and in the case of the Klein's, reduce the population of Majano therein...). Might be especially worthwhile in the case of more challenging fish that are high on my list, like the butterfly, powderblue, and regal angel. (Some of my LFS are as pricey or more so than online pre-quarantine as it stands - and they obviously don't always [ever] quarantine.)

Much as I would love to have confidence in my understanding and ability to quarantine, it's just not working out. On paper (in electrons?) I think I've got a halfway decent understanding - I just can't seem to manage decent outcomes.

@Wen , the video of the butterfly was shot on the 11th, and the copper was actually a tad higher than that back then. At least a week before the date I opened this thread.

Light feedings, several times daily is how I roll - frozen cubes morning and evening, thawed and separated into two feedings each, and when I'm home midday, a shot of pellets or flakes.

Based on responses to this thread (and the fact that the wrasses are, alas, passed on as well), I'm currently working about an 18 gallon (four five-gallon buckets, not full to the brim) water change, and going to try to target copper at 2.0ppm.

My thanks to you all.

~Bruce

 

[Ross B Reef'n]

I recently bought a school of threadfin cardinals from Blue Zoo and they were dropping like flies from an invisible illness until a prozipro treatment. They were also very lethargic and unenergetic eaters prior to prazi. GC did nothing. I'm thinking if I had done prazi before copper, I might still have them all.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I recently bought a school of threadfin cardinals from Blue Zoo and they were dropping like flies from an invisible illness until a prozipro treatment. They were also very lethargic and unenergetic eaters prior to prazi. GC did nothing. I'm thinking if I had done prazi before copper, I might still have them all.

That is actually an exception - protozoan diseases kill faster and sooner than trematodes do, so copper should be dosed first. If flukes are diagnosed in advance, you can treat copper and praziquantel together.
I’m not sure what happened in your case because GC has a full dose of prazi in it.
Jay

 

[RomoFL]

We’ve battled velvet and got lucky all things considered. We lost a designer clown, an orange clown, and a powder brown tang. Or other designer clown was also infected and our blue hippo was on deaths door step. The rest of our fish seemed okay - a melanurus wrasse, a foxface and a yellow tang.

We converted our 20g to a hospital tank and used copper (ramped up to therapeutic levels over a week - cuz of the wrasse) and we kept them at therapeutic levels for about 3 weeks then brought it back down slowly and kept them in the 20g until the DT had run fallow for 80 days. During the treatment, there were days I swear the blue hippo was going to die. My wife would wake up finding him stuck to the overflow grate and she’d push him off and he’d swim away.. leaving grill marks on his side. He looked like a meth addict and chemo patient rolled in one. Ultimately everyone in the 20g made it out alive and to this day they’re buddies - like they hang out together in my Reefer 350. When new fish come in, the new fish pretty much get the cold shoulder and would later be initiated.
We got really lucky overall - I hope better luck finds you.

happy holidays

 

[Ross B Reef'n]

That is actually an exception - protozoan diseases kill faster and sooner than trematodes do, so copper should be dosed first. If flukes are diagnosed in advance, you can treat copper and praziquantel together.
I’m not sure what happened in your case because GC has a full dose of prazi in it.
Jay

I once read it has something to do with the soluability of the prazi in the GC compared to the liquid form.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I once read it has something to do with the soluability of the prazi in the GC compared to the liquid form.

The solubility of Prazipro is a bit of a misnomer - it is only dissolved when it is in the bottle, as soon as it is added to the tank it comes out of solution (the white cloud that you see). If GC isn't added to a tank properly, then yes, chunks of it may stick above the water line and be unavailable. I express it through a brine shrimp net or pantyhose. The label says to just "empty the packet into the tank" - well, that's wrong!

Jay