Velvet or Gram Negative Bacteria?

[PoeticInjustice]

Ok, I’m at my wits end now. I’m trying to do everything right in my QT procedure but one of my QT tanks got wiped out today. I had 3 lyretail anthias and a copperband butterfly in that tank.

I am using coppersafe and I have a hanna copper checker so I’m not guessing the copper level.

I got the Lyretail Anthias last 08/25 and kept them in an unmedicated QT tank.
I got the Copperband Butterfly last 09/01 and added it to the same QT tank as the Anthias.

I started ramping the Copper level on the QT tank on 09/03. I was planning on doing a 4-day ramp.

I’ve been observing the fish a lot everyday and I haven’t seen any signs of disease, until late yesterday. I noticed that the CBB and one of the Anthias have been scratching on the PVC pipes a lot. I thought it was ich (but no signs of it) and since it was my 3rd day of ramp yesteday ( copper @ 1.29), I thought that they should be fine and should make it today - when the copper will be at full dose.
Lo and behold, when I woke up, the copperband is on its side and on the way out. The anthias are all gone after I arrived from the office, later in the day. The fish still doesn’t have any signs of velvet.

So can fish die from velvet without any physical signs? If this is gram negative bacteria, how would I know?

Here are photos of the dead CBB after I pulled it out late in the day today. He must’ve been dead for a few hours in this photo. I’m noticing what seems as mild red stain on the fish’s body.

Somebody please help me figure this out. I need to learn from this to prevent this from happening again in the future.

Additional information:
Ammonia is zero. I’m using the Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge.
Nobody sprayed anything in the room. I have other tanks in the same room. so it would’ve killed the other tanks if this is the case.

 

[Humblefish]

Fish can die of velvet without visible physical symptoms, because the trophonts jam up the gills and the fish dies due to asphyxiation.

With a bacterial infection, you should see signs: redness, white patches, fin/tail erosion, etc.

 

[PoeticInjustice]

Fish can die of velvet without visible physical symptoms, because the trophonts jam up the gills and the fish dies due to asphyxiation.

With a bacterial infection, you should see signs: redness, white patches, fin/tail erosion, etc.

Thanks @Humblefish ...
Based from my description and photos above, what do you think killed my fish?
Gram positive bacteria can’t kill fish that quickly, right?

btw, I have photos of the dead anthias, if you’re interested to see it.

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks @Humblefish ...
Based from my description and photos above, what do you think killed my fish?
Gram positive bacteria can’t kill fish that quickly, right?

btw, I have photos of the dead anthias, if you’re interested to see it.

Gram negative & velvet can both kill very quickly. But of the two, only velvet would not show any obvious symptoms. Of course, the same applies to an environmental issue in the tank.

 

[PoeticInjustice]

Gram negative & velvet can both kill very quickly. But of the two, only velvet would not show any obvious symptoms. Of course, the same applies to an environmental issue in the tank.

So let’s say that this is velvet, from the timeline above, does it make sense that the copperband was the carrier to the QT tank? How long does it take for velvel to strike? The anthias have been on the tank a week earlier.

 

[Humblefish]

So let’s say that this is velvet, from the timeline above, does it make sense that the copperband was the carrier to the QT tank? How long does it take for velvel to strike? The anthias have been on the tank a week earlier.

The CBB would be the most likely carrier, and 1.29ppm chelated copper would not be high enough to zap any dinospores before they attacked the other fish. Some strains of velvet can drop off a fish in as little as 12 hours, so 5 days would be enough time for hatching dinospores to seek out fish to infect.

 

[PoeticInjustice]

The CBB would be the most likely carrier, and 1.29ppm chelated copper would not be high enough to zap any dinospores before they attacked the other fish. Some strains of velvet can drop off a fish in as little as 12 hours, so 5 days would be enough time for hatching dinospores to seek out fish to infect.

Thanks for the info.

I’m currently reviewing your posts regarding velvet and bacterial infection. I’ve had some setbacks in my QT process but I’m determined to make this work.

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks for the info.

I’m currently reviewing your posts regarding velvet and bacterial infection. I’ve had some setbacks in my QT process but I’m determined to make this work.

Good luck. The livestock supply chain is badly diseased right now. I've never seen it this bad. @4FordFamily @HotRocks can testify.

 

[PoeticInjustice]

Good luck. The livestock supply chain is badly diseased right now. I've never seen it this bad. @4FordFamily @HotRocks can testify.

How’s Diver’s Den? I’m contemplating on buying from DD just to get the best chance of having a fish go through QT successfully.

 

[Humblefish]

How’s Diver’s Den? I’m contemplating on buying from DD just to get the best chance of having a fish go through QT successfully.

I haven't used them in years, so I cannot say.

 

[Big G]

If you are considering trying again with a CBB. Consider treating the fish immediately with NFG. It works really well on those "red sores" that show up all too frequently on Butterflies. Problem is that if you wait for the red sores to show, it's almost or may be too late to save the fish.

 

[PoeticInjustice]

If you are considering trying again with a CBB. Consider treating the fish immediately with NFG. It works really well on those "red sores" that show up all too frequently on Butterflies. Problem is that if you wait for the red sores to show, it's almost or may be too late to save the fish.

Thanks. I will consider this. I have an experience with NFG on a yellow tang and few clowns. I had a CBB successfully go through copper/prazi a couple of months ago and never had any bacterial infection. It was on QT tanks for a couple of months. I didn’t know that these guys are very susceptible to bacterial infections too.

 

[Giddyup]

I probably am missing something, you started copper treatment with no signs of ill to any fish?

 

[PoeticInjustice]

I probably am missing something, you started copper treatment with no signs of ill to any fish?

Yeah, I’m doing prophylactic QT.

 

[Giddyup]

I will google it ... I’ve struggled with QT in past too... I’ve taken QT to Hypo-salinity and used cupermine with success... One thing in QT I have watched bounce is PH swings, probably due to small volume 20 gallons... Sad to hear you lost all in tank .. I setup QT short term and those with full time QT, I suspect do better... Hope more expert peeps chime in ...

What was your source of oxygenating the water?
Using any water conditioners, such as prime or others? Heard that is a no-no ....

 

[PoeticInjustice]

I have an aquaclear 50 and air pump on the tank to oxygenate the water. I’m not using any water conditioner as I know that it’s fatal with copper. I’ve tried both cupramine and hyposalinity previously. I didn’t have luck with hypo but I’ve had better luck with cupramine. I just tried coppersafe now because I have a flame angel on my other QT tank and I’ve read that they’re more sensitive to Cupramine vs chelated copper.

 

[HotRocks]

Good luck. The livestock supply chain is badly diseased right now. I've never seen it this bad. @4FordFamily @HotRocks can testify.

This ^^^

It's absolutely terrible right now. Lots of gram negative bacterial infections and velvet.

 

[HotRocks]

How’s Diver’s Den? I’m contemplating on buying from DD just to get the best chance of having a fish go through QT successfully.

Generally speaking you will have a better chance. I am dealing with an Achilles from DD right now that has a bacterial infection. (Showed up with it).

Also have a handful of others from DD that are ok. I would still use your normal QT protocol. You have a better chance getting a healthy specimen to start with, and typically "finicky eaters" will show up already eating most of the time.

 

[4FordFamily]

This ^^^

It's absolutely terrible right now. Lots of gram negative bacterial infections and velvet.

Generally speaking you will have a better chance. I am dealing with an Achilles from DD right now that has a bacterial infection. (Showed up with it).

Also have a handful of others from DD that are ok. I would still use your normal QT protocol. You have a better chance getting a healthy specimen to start with, and typically "finicky eaters" will show up already eating most of the time.

I agree with all of this.

 

[Humblefish]

If you are considering trying again with a CBB. Consider treating the fish immediately with NFG. It works really well on those "red sores" that show up all too frequently on Butterflies. Problem is that if you wait for the red sores to show, it's almost or may be too late to save the fish.

^^ +1 NFG really is amazing. I had an Exquisite Wrasse & Multicolor Angel in QT (copper) one time, and the wrasse just started going crazy. Constantly jumping, hitting the lid, damaging himself, and then I saw the dreaded red sore on the angel. So, I setup a 10 gal QT with just an air driven sponge filter, heater, etc. and put both fish in there w/NFG. Almost immediately the wrasse settled down (I believe the methylene blue found in NFG has a calming effect), and the angel's sore was gone within 10 days. I kept them in NFG for 14 days total, and they were both completely fine after that.