Vodka Dosing killing my entire tank!!!!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How many hobbyist are able to lay the link? The shift from an autotropic to an heterotropic carrying capacity is a fact, not fiction! When dosing is stopped there is a severe risk for ammonia build up. There has been a lot of problems which can de linked to carbon dosing when the dosing is interrupted or stopped . Even system crashes!!

I've not seen these problems reported. Can you link to a case where stopping organic dosing in a home reef caused an ammonia rise and/or tank crash?

I do agree that it suggests prudence in reducing carbon dosing more slowly than instantly, but many folks have done the instant stop without apparent issue.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The only kind of vodka dosing I'll do is to my stomach. Adding it to the tank can give some immediate effective that seems beneficial but its like the calm before the storm and eventually you'll have big algae outbreak or livestocks start dying.

That's just not generally true. Many people, myself included, dosed organic carbon for years without the issues you mention.

Did it happen to you?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

As far as I know not one author or propagator of carbon dosing has made the link and warned for the fact that the carrying capacity of the system may become completely dependable of heterotrophic growth due to uncontrolled carbon dosing.
There is nothing wrong with carbon dosing if it is done on a known and measurable parameter, this way preventing most ammonia is consumed by heterotropic growth.
And to remember, carbon dosing may lower nitrogen- and phosphor compounds in the water column but it removes nothing from the system. It becomes part of the food chain.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I've not seen these problems reported. Can you link to a case where stopping organic dosing in a home reef caused an ammonia rise and/or tank crash?

I do agree that it suggests prudence in reducing carbon dosing more slowly than instantly, but many folks have done the instant stop without apparent issue.

A lot of folks who stopped have had severe problems afterwards without laying the link to carbon dosing, a few did without knowing why as nobody ever mentioned the shift to a heterotrophic carbon doses based carrying capacity. If a system crashes due to ammonia poisoning they will not know. No hobbyist will take its dead fish directly to a lab to examine them. Ammonia poisoning is an important issue in aquaculture and a lot of research has been done concerning.

 

[zyer1090]

That's just not generally true. Many people, myself included, dosed organic carbon for years without the issues you mention.

Did it happen to you?

No I have not but I have seen and heard numerous time from local veteran hobbyists having the same outbreak of nuisance algae or having a tank crash.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No I have not but I have seen and heard numerous time from local veteran hobbyists having the same outbreak of nuisance algae or having a tank crash.

OK. I would just caution that these issues happen all the time for reasons that are not apparent, and since many people dose organic carbon, even if it is just coincidence, it will coincide a lot.

That said, I am not disputing the fact that organics will often cause bacterial growth, and that growth may not always be desirable.

 

[madweazl]

The only kind of vodka dosing I'll do is to my stomach. Adding it to the tank can give some immediate effective that seems beneficial but its like the calm before the storm and eventually you'll have big algae outbreak or livestocks start dying.

 

[zyer1090]

OK. I would just caution that these issues happen all the time for reasons that are not apparent, and since many people dose organic carbon, even if it is just coincidence, it will coincide a lot.

That said, I am not disputing the fact that organics will often cause bacterial growth, and that growth may not always be desirable.

Caution results may vary [emoji23]

 

[f793wm]

I dosed 3ml of Tito’s Vodka every day in a stable 150 gallon FOWLR tank that has steady 25ppm Nitrate prob, thinking it would help and within a week most of My fish died. Also saw a spike in alkalinity.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I dosed 3ml of Tito’s Vodka every day in a stable 150 gallon FOWLR tank that has steady 25ppm Nitrate prob, thinking it would help and within a week most of My fish died. Also saw a spike in alkalinity.

Did you stop dosing a week ago? Or did this happen after one week of daily dosing? Do you have any idea of your daily nitrate production? Do you know how much protein you are adding daily by feeding? Probably there is no connection between this unfortunate event and carbon dosing. As this vodka is 40% the dose may remove 125mg NH4-N which is not that much in a 600l fish only tank. Did you spread the dose over the day?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I dosed 3ml of Tito’s Vodka every day in a stable 150 gallon FOWLR tank that has steady 25ppm Nitrate prob, thinking it would help and within a week most of My fish died. Also saw a spike in alkalinity.

Was it a new tank?

I suspect the fish issue was just coincidence, but you do need to be sure to be well aerated when dosing organic carbon due to consumption of O2.

We know exactly how much alk will rise, and if the nitrate dropped from 25 ppm to zero, the alk will rise by about 1.1 dKH. It could not have risen appreciably more than that.

 

[CindyKz]

And to remember, carbon dosing may lower nitrogen- and phosphor compounds in the water column but it removes nothing from the system. It becomes part of the food chain.

I thought it was removed through skimming? I don't carbon dose, just trying to understand the processes involved.

Also, I'm kind of curious why people with FOWLR tanks are vodka dosing in the first place? My understanding has always been that fish are fairly tolerant of nitrates unless levels are extreme.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

It will not be the first nor the last time that adding vodka alcohol will kill fish. Poorly informed some will add the dose undiluted and in one go to the aquarium. The movement of the water surface is the signal for many fish that is being fed with all its consequences.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I thought it was removed through skimming? I don't carbon dose, just trying to understand the processes involved.

Also, I'm kind of curious why people with FOWLR tanks are vodka dosing in the first place? My understanding has always been that fish are fairly tolerant of nitrates unless levels are extreme.

It may be. A good skimmer may remove +- 35% of TOC including DOC, leaving +- 65% of the organics, mostly hydrophilic and polar compounds. Live bacteria may be carried out on the foam. the removal is very selective .
Most of the by dosing produced protein will be consumed , recycled, remineralized, producing ammonia. Most important for understanding carbon dosing is the fact that fast growing heterotrophs prefer ammonia as a nitrogen source and carbon dosing will remove the available ammonium-nitrogen previously used by other organisms including slow growing autotrophic nitrifiers, this way reducing or removing the previously installed autotrophic carrying capacity of the system, reorganising the previously installed balance completely.
Why does nature limits the availability of organic carbon by transforming it to CO2 this way closing the carbon cycle!

Why FOWLR tanks are used? What is the benefit of live rock in a fish only tank as the fish will clean the rock in no time? Why not use a simple BIO which makes it easy to adjust the carrying capacity to the bio-load of a growing tank?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I thought it was removed through skimming? I don't carbon dose, just trying to understand the processes involved.

Also, I'm kind of curious why people with FOWLR tanks are vodka dosing in the first place? My understanding has always been that fish are fairly tolerant of nitrates unless levels are extreme.

Both N and P can be removed by skimming after organic carbon dosing, and N can be removed as N2. Accumulation in organisms is also going to happen, and is a plus, IMO, not a minus.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

We know exactly how much alk will rise, and if the nitrate dropped from 25 ppm to zero, the alk will rise by about 1.1 dKH. It could not have risen appreciably more than that.

Is it assumed only or all nitrate-nitrogen is removed by heterotrophic growth? Does the removal rate of the skimmer influences this calculation?


It is a proven fact that fast growing heterotrophic r-strategists use ammonium-nitrogen and not nitrate-nitrogen for fast growth! The assimilation of ammonium-nitrogen consumes alk!
It is assumed the produced proteins are harvested by the skimmer, the removal rate in unknown and limited.
Consumption and or decay produces ammonium-nitrogen. When and while the nitrate level is reduced (by assimilation) a lot of the nitrogen will end up as ammonium-nitrogen which again may be assimilated reducing alk.
Inhibition of nitrification combined with changed heterotrophic and autotrophic denitrification and DNRA rates depending of the C:N ratio.
The inhibition of nitrification, the changed daily nitrate production and reduction not included in the nitrate level, drastic changes in mineralisation and remineralisation rates and CO2 production, changes in the removal rate of the skimmer? Photo-autotrophs have to change nitrogen source, consuming or producing alk
The daily nitrogen production and the way it is used or removed is not known exactly.
Is it a bare bottom ? May bacteria grow on calcium carbonate media?

I think the reading will not match the calculation ,

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t make any assumption about, nor do I know, how much of the nitrogen incorporated into organics/tissue driven by organic carbon dosing is taken up as ammonia vs nitrite vs nitrate. Any uptake of any of them will serve to lower nitrate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Assimilation of ammonia does not create or deplete alk.

Ammonia is the product generated by fish waste. Some is converted into ammonium form, and that conversion adds alkalinity. If you then reverse that conversion to use ammonium, you deplete exactly what you added to produce the ammonium.. That part of the nitrogen cycle had no impact on alk and papers that claim it does are incorrect by focusing on only a part of the process. We (I and other members, maybe you too) have discussed these errors here before.

 

[Philipgonzales3]

I thought it was removed through skimming? I don't carbon dose, just trying to understand the processes involved.

Also, I'm kind of curious why people with FOWLR tanks are vodka dosing in the first place? My understanding has always been that fish are fairly tolerant of nitrates unless levels are extreme.

I thought the same too. I'm setting up a FOWLR tank and would like to understand why people dose vodka. Is higher nitrates than are manageable common with FOWLR tanks?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I thought the same too. I'm setting up a FOWLR tank and would like to understand why people dose vodka. Is higher nitrates than are manageable common with FOWLR tanks?

What is your motivation for setting up a fish only tank using LR?