Went From GFO to Seachem's Phosguard and I'm never Going Back

[WallyB]

I have a BRS dual chambered GFO and Carbon reactor. Can I just pull out the GFO and replace it with Phosguard or does it have to be run differently?

Of course you can. Both run the same. Just different chemicals (Iron VS Aluminum) . GFO Clumps more from what I hear. Phosguard is beads.
Both should be set to flows, just a notch below tumbling.
I might also look into Seachem PHOSbond. It's GFO and PhosGuard in same bead form . NOT CHEAP, and probably more aggressive than I want.

 

[dbl]

I have a BRS dual chambered GFO and Carbon reactor. Can I just pull out the GFO and replace it with Phosguard or does it have to be run differently?

You certainly can...it's exactly what I did many years ago. Just make sure to rinse it well and keep it from tumbling too much (at least in my opinion).

 

[Mortie31]

Excellent. Found someone who uses Phosguard ( @dbl ). I just started using it and find it different from GFO (Slower, Exhausts Faster)

So first I did find out the Myth about Phosguard releasing Aluminum (SAFE.....if used properly: rinsed before use, and not tumbled to break it down).
Randy Holmes Article with scientific proof https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/7/chemistry

However I need some input on how to use Phosguard properly

I have 110 Gallon tank with 50 Gallon Sump so roughly about 150 Gallons of water. No algae issues since my Algae scrubber keeps DT clean.

My Phosphate is 0.20-0.25 (stable range) and my target is to get to 0.1 STABLE.

I actually called Seachem since my experience with Phosgaurd is a bit confusing.
I explained to them that I was using Phosguard in media bags IN SUMP flow areas, and it would bring P down a tiny bit, and stop.
Then I decided to put the Phosgard into a Two Little Fishies reactor. 1 Cup since the instructions say 1/3 Cup per 50 Gallons.
That is how I got my P down down from 0.25 to 0.21 and again things Stalled. After about 4 days.

Seachem explained to me that Phosguard (Aluminum based Remover) is lighter than typical (Iron Based GFO).
It reduces phosphate slower than GFO, and exhausts faster than GFO.

That is fine by me since I don't want to drop P too fast, since I have nothing but SPS in my Tank. (QUICK DROPS in P can be deadly to SPS)

However I want to know when it's time to replace Phosguard, and how much of a reduction I can expect.
Normally when I used GFO in my reactor, I would test the Reactor output, and would get P=0.00
When reactor output was no longer 0.00, that would mean GFO is exhausted and time to replace.

This is not the case with Phosguard. My Reactor output is not 0.00 even if fresh, and I would say not much lower than Tank P Level.

That is where Seachem explained I might need to used more than a cup.
Partly due to the fact that Phosphates are being added daily by feeding fish/corals.

Also Seachem explained that Phosguard has a capacity to reduce P by 3 mg/L. I'm not exactly sure what that means.
[mg/L is ppm] but how do you use that number to figure out capacity of Phosguard on 150 Gallons of Water with P=0.25 ppm. (What will P drop on that 1 CUP of Phosguard? Doesn't matter to me how fast, just how much, based on water volume)
Know that calculation would help to know how my (P in ppm) can (1 cup) absorb (per volume of water).

Or is there another methodology on how to use Phosguard effectively, and under control?

The stalling you have seen when using phosphate absorbers is likely to be because of PO4 leeching from your rockwork, as you bring tank levels down, it will equalise, by the higher levels in your rock. Eventually as you keep changing media you will exhaust the PO4 in your rock. It took me over a year from similar levels to you. Maybe worth monitoring the Al levels as mine always increased so I alternated between Al and GFO to reduce the AL levels. I now use a LaCl now far simpler than all of them..

 

[WallyB]

The stalling you have seen when using phosphate absorbers is likely to be because of PO4 leeching from your rockwork, as you bring tank levels down, it will equalise, by the higher levels in your rock. Eventually as you keep changing media you will exhaust the PO4 in your rock. It took me over a year from similar levels to you. Maybe worth monitoring the Al levels as mine always increased so I alternated between Al and GFO to reduce the AL levels. I now use a LaCl now far simpler than all of them..

Perfect. I was actually thinking along those lines after reading Article from Dr. Randy Holmes. He said as you get lower Phosphates, it triggers rocks to leach out the last bit of phosphate that is trapped inside. (and takes time to totally leach out, since leaching is slow)
I am PHYSICALLY noticing this in a peculiar way. Some rocks (newer ones) have some patches of Cyano (very light dusting). I'm guessing this is something leaching out of rocks in those areas.
It's not any Cyano outbreak, just starts, and fades away. Might be nutrients leaching out too, as Water Column water is getting purer.

Good to know (about stall/delay), since there may be a tipping point after rocks finish leaching P. I want to stop Phosguard before P get's too low. I do test for P 2-3 times a week at this Stage.

To control any AL from Phosguard, I have a tiny baggie of cuprisorb on the Phosguard Reactor output. It should trap any AL.

Thanks, I will look into whatever LaCL is.

 

[jda]

I bought a 8 gallon bucket of al oxide from SeaChem and I use it when I need to cure/cook live rock that is bound with phosphates. The stuff is amazingly effective and fast. I do rinse it well and change it often - it seems like with strong flow, it can exhaust in less than a day if there is a good amount of P in the system.

I had an argument with people about a decade ago about it and "leeching" aluminum into the water, but we agreed that if I did not use 500mls of the stuff in a liter of water, then I would probably be OK if I did not let it tumble. I pack it in there tight and then use GAC on the top to keep it from moving. I sent in a ICP test after doings this a few years ago and Aluminum was in the NSW range... of nearly nothing.

Kinda like GFO, I do find that if the stuff get coated in organics, it can stop working... so I use less and change it more often.

Like Mortie31 said, do not underestimate how much aragonite can act as a reservoir for phosphate... this is just kinda what it does. If you go slow and keep going with it, you will get all the way down to where ever you want to go. It can take a lot - a local changed from a FOWLR with phosphate near 2.0 and wanted a reef and it took him about 10 gallons of Phosguard to get to .05 phosphate. I did a test and just a small amount of aragonite in a Phosban reactor was capable of binding 52 ppm of phosphate down below .16 in 10 gallons of water. The aragonite will bind in "equilibrium" to the outside water - Dr. Holmes-Farley posted some charts that showed that the binding is exponential as the concentrations get higher. GFO and Al Oxide also bind to equilibrium in an exponential fashion.

Lastly, remember that both Al Oxide and GFO do not bind permanently. If you lower the concentration of water in the tank without changing the media, it will release phosphate back into the water to equilibrium. Basically, if you change water or otherwise lower the phosphate in the water column, change your GFO or Al Oxide too.

 

[WallyB]

I bought a 8 gallon bucket of al oxide from SeaChem and I use it when I need to cure/cook live rock that is bound with phosphates. The stuff is amazingly effective and fast. I do rinse it well and change it often - it seems like with strong flow, it can exhaust in less than a day if there is a good amount of P in the system.

I had an argument with people about a decade ago about it and "leeching" aluminum into the water, but we agreed that if I did not use 500mls of the stuff in a liter of water, then I would probably be OK if I did not let it tumble. I pack it in there tight and then use GAC on the top to keep it from moving. I sent in a ICP test after doings this a few years ago and Aluminum was in the NSW range... of nearly nothing.

Kinda like GFO, I do find that if the stuff get coated in organics, it can stop working... so I use less and change it more often.

Like Mortie31 said, do not underestimate how much aragonite can act as a reservoir for phosphate... this is just kinda what it does. If you go slow and keep going with it, you will get all the way down to where ever you want to go. It can take a lot - a local changed from a FOWLR with phosphate near 2.0 and wanted a reef and it took him about 10 gallons of Phosguard to get to .05 phosphate. I did a test and just a small amount of aragonite in a Phosban reactor was capable of binding 52 ppm of phosphate down below .16 in 10 gallons of water. The aragonite will bind in "equilibrium" to the outside water - Dr. Holmes-Farley posted some charts that showed that the binding is exponential as the concentrations get higher. GFO and Al Oxide also bind to equilibrium in an exponential fashion.

Lastly, remember that both Al Oxide and GFO do not bind permanently. If you lower the concentration of water in the tank without changing the media, it will release phosphate back into the water to equilibrium. Basically, if you change water or otherwise lower the phosphate in the water column, change your GFO or Al Oxide too.

Beyond perfect summary!!

Now I know exactly what to do for the next while, and it makes perfect/logical & scientific sense!! (Lines up 100% with what I am observing)

I wish there was a equivalent/easy solution for Nitrate levels.

 

[MrZ2u]

I am researching GFO/PAO/??? myself at the moment. Its motivated by my situation though so that needs a preface.

I have...

• a Nuvo Lagoon 25gal with what I believe is about 19 or so gallons actual.
• Tunze 9001
• 25 +/- lbs rock
• 1L Eheim Substrat Pro in two media bags
• SYGAVLED 165w LED fixture (similar to Mars Aqua 165w)

Everything was going along nicely till one day I got infested with GHA out of nowhere that took over. That coupled neglect during a rough time with the family and no coral survived minus a second semi-take over of GSP. Still have five fish in there which dont care about the green like I do. I pretty much have the GHA taken out now and have had a sea hare in there for a couple weeks...still pooping so eating something but all that appears to be left is a real coarse "turf" algae that nobody can name. Its dark green and holds its shape out of water...kinda like the fake bushes one might use in the model train hobby. Anyway, they are still there and the Seahare might be munching on them a little but I cannot see evidence of that but I also dont see the GHA.

I have been doing a 5 gal change every three days for about three weeks now...got two more planned. Nitrate and Phosphate are showing undetectable(and were during the mass growth) with API kits which I know are not real accurate but if things were very high they should indicate that well enough. GHA is not growing back that I can see but its now the glass that is killing me. I can change the water and razor the glass at 08:00 and by 17:00 the same day the glass needs the magfloat. If I let that go another 24hrs the float barely scratches it and we are back to the blade which makes a dark green flimy scum that I can remove with the net if I dont break it up too much...young GHA I think. Also, a fine green "dusting" on the sand is present after a couple days. Additional to the water changes/scraping/sand vac...I have been treating as prescribed Fritz Algae CleanOut for about two weeks now and it seems to be no better on the glass front.

Since I have no corals to worry about I can go nuclear on the phosphate and unless anyone can give me experienced reason not to my plan is scorched earth on that front.

NOW...the question. I think I have settled on getting the media reactor that IM makes for this tank...though, something like this is interesting as well.

The IM reactor has more media capacity than I would need for GFO or PAO based on even the most aggressive calculations for 20 gal. After talking with folks there, at BRS, MD and four different folks at my three LFS I think the plan is put the measured amount of which ever oxide I choose in the chamber and fill the rest of the volume with GAC. Logic with that is since Seachem says right on the bottle NOT to tumble blending it with GAC would hold it still and the same with GFO except that it would keep it blended apart to prevent clumping. Since I am using such small prescribed volumes its not costly to throw out the whole blend every two-three weeks until the situation is figured and we get back to maintenance mode.

I am all but settled on a media chamber to insure good flow thru vs just a sock. ( I've had ChemiPure Blue packs in there and they just get hard in a few days if you dont break them up over and over.)

Question now that is rattling around my skull is what about mixing GFO/PAO AND GAC? Seachem already sells a blended GF+A blend in PhosBond so that could be marketing or science...or a little of both.

 

[The Big Chill]

Long time GFO (granular ferric oxide) user for controlling Phosphates. Despite the "high phosphate is OK" trend in the hobby lately, my scientific research based approach to coral reef keeping (low nutrients aiming for NSW levels) has served me well over the years. It is a fact that phosphate limits calcification in corals and that fact is enough for me to work to limit it. Anyway, GFO is messy and expensive. Seachem's Phosguard isn't messy and is cheap. Sold.

Totally agree! I switched from GFO to Phosguard also and it is much easier to use and one reason is because the modules are much bigger. GFO is almost like a powder thus controlling where it goes in the sump is harder. With Phosguard all you have to do is put in a filter bag and drop in a reasonable flow area and you are done. Can't do that with GFO. You need a solid reactor with the right pump flow for GFO. Wrong pump flow (too high or too low) and you have a mess either way.

 

[WallyB]

My PhosGuard Trial (TOTAL FAILURE)…..I switched to RowaPhos & DailyWaterChanges (and so Far Things Going Very VERY Well)

I posted above back in October when I started Using PhosGuard (Trial with great hope for Slow P reduction and Stability)

Everyone's tank is different, however in my case PhosGuard didn't work for me.
It expired too quickly, and that caused my P to Swing up (as it expired) and then Down (when I replaced). Which really affected the health of my SPS.

I tried replacing the media more frequently, however that became too much of a chore. Maybe more Media in my small Two Little Fishies reactor could have helped. Yet, Adding/changing-out more would have changed the price point.

Also....The greatest challenge was to figure out how much to use and when to replace.

Normally I would expected that I could measure the Output of my Reactor and look for near zero Phosphates when it was still good. That for some reason didn't work for me. I never got a near zero reading using Hanna tester.

I went thru 4Medium jars of PhosGaurd, and then gave up!

So I didn't go back to Cheaper Typical Granular GFO (which I used in past), INSTEAD I decided to go for higher price RhowaPhos.

With RhowaPhos (on my 110G system), I only needed to use 1 Cup, every two weeks, and i changed it every two weeks.
In about two months, I got my Phosphate down to 0.06ppm, which is something I could never achieve.
With PhosGuard, I would swing beween 0.35 down to 0.2, 0.15 lowest.

I also like the consistancy of the RowaPhos media since it doesn't clump, or plug up.
NO rinsing required. (LIttle cloudy water for a few hours. Totally harmless)

To me the extra cost of the Rowaphos is worth every penny since just losing one nice Frag would pay for a whole jar.

However to be fair and objective, I also built a DIY Water Changer, that I enable at the same time.
It changes my water daily (1 Gallon Every Day, on my 110G Tank), so about 30 Gallons a month.
Compared to my sporatic 10-20 Gallon water changes that I used to do every two weeks, or every month.
That certainly could be another factor for my success.

When I say success, I mean no more SPS frags bleaching/damaging..... all have Amazing PE, good colors, and waiting patiently to see more growth.
The Corals are doing the best ever. Even DEAD corals I cut off during my failures, are coming back from the little residue left on rocks.

I doubt it was the Tank just finishing it's Phosphate Leaching out of rock (since Tank is over a 1.5 years old and rocks much much old than that)

Maybe if I stuck with PhosGuard longer things would have also gone well (I had to give up with Damage being caused)

Maybe it was just the Daily water changes....(Better Trace Element Stability)
Maybe it was just the RowaPhos.....(Lowering P and keep it low and STABLE)
Maybe it was both together.


Doesn't matter what it was, or is......When something works, I'm not changing anything.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

I don’t think everyone’s tanks are different. People use that whenever something doesn’t work or they can’t accept or figure out what the issue is. It’s just not true. Bulk Reef Supply throws the the term around to deflect criticism of bad products or bad advice. Making the hobby seem more art than science when really it is all science.

The people that run them are different and have varying degrees of success executing procedures and using products. A lot of people don’t understand saltwater chemistry and a lot of people don’t read and follow instructions or directions.

Rowaphos is a great product. I used it successfully for years to reduce pho’s. Whenever you’re using these medias you should be texting pho’s daily and using the correct amount of media depending on his w much pho’s you need to remove. The only drawbacks to Rowa is the price and again it’s a messy damp granule to mess with. At the end of the day though, whatever works best for you and you have success with is great.

 

[WallyB]

I don’t think everyone’s tanks are different. People use that whenever something doesn’t work or they can’t accept or figure out what the issue is. It’s just not true. Bulk Reef Supply throws the the term around to deflect criticism of bad products or bad advice. Making the hobby seem more art than science when really it is all science.

The people that run them are different and have varying degrees of success executing procedures and using products. A lot of people don’t understand saltwater chemistry and a lot of people don’t read and follow instructions or directions.

Rowaphos is a great product. I used it successfully for years to reduce pho’s. Whenever you’re using these medias you should be texting pho’s daily and using the correct amount of media depending on his w much pho’s you need to remove. The only drawbacks to Rowa is the price and again it’s a messy damp granule to mess with. At the end of the day though, whatever works best for you and you have success with is great.

I hear your point about people not using products correctly.
100% true!!!! Biggest cause of Tank Failures and Overdoses.

That's why I meticulously read, research, and when Phosguard wasn't working for me, I called Seachem Support. They were helpful, but led me to conclude the product is a gentle P scrubber, and not as much P capacity as typical GFO. Thus wasn't right for me.

Also....Some products are better than others (be it quality, or method-of-use), some are snake oils (don't work), and other's dangerous if not used properly.

In the case of RowaPhos (yes it is messy for Baggy Method), but in a canister, it PERFECT!

 

[Afterburner]

It is interesting that Seachem told you it is a "gentle P scrubber" since the bottle says "rapidly removes phosphate and silicate from marine and freshwater aquaria". It even says that if your phosphate hasn't dropped to 0.02 mg/L in 4 days that you need to replace it and test again in 4 days. That doesn't seem "gentle" to me..... unless your Phosphate is at 0.03 already.

 

[WallyB]

It is interesting that Seachem told you it is a "gentle P scrubber" since the bottle says "rapidly removes phosphate and silicate from marine and freshwater aquaria". It even says that if your phosphate hasn't dropped to 0.02 mg/L in 4 days that you need to replace it and test again in 4 days. That doesn't seem "gentle" to me..... unless your Phosphate is at 0.03 already.

I hear you. I read those same instructions and when my P wouldn't budge (or would swing) I called them for explanation.
I did give up as I mentioned. Been using RhowaPhos for months slow trickle (replace 1 Cup every 2 weeks for 110Gal Medium Stocked tank). Now P=0.1 or a tad lower (.07-.09), Stable. Never going back.

 

[Afterburner]

Well, now a couple of days later, I can attest to the ability of PhosGuard. Last week, I got a killer deal on some SPS frags from a guy and decided to move from basically a tank with a couple of LPS to SPS not knowing really what I am doing, but at $5 a frag it was worth a try. When I picked up the frags and told the guy that my P was so high two weeks earlier when I bought a test kit that it was not readable, but that I started NOPOX dosing and have it down to 0.81...... yes 0.81, not 0.081! The experienced reefer seemed to have little confidence that these frags would make it, and recommended GFO. I went on Amazon and searched for GFO, and found a deal on PhosGuard (I thought it was GFO) with next day delivery. I read the directions and put 2/3 cup in a bag and threw it in my sump in the waterfall before my return pump. I measured my P on that day (10/22) at 0.72 with my Hanna low P test kit. I tested it today (4 days later per the instructions) and P tested at 0.02 (which is basically zero because of the accuracy of the test kit). My RODI water actually tests out at 0.03, so I can tell you that this stuff really worked for me. I did notice that my PH had dropped from 8.0 to 7.9, but that may be just the time of day I tested. Here are my other parameters, and I am still carbon dosing (12ml NOPOX per day for my 100gal) to get my Nitrates in order - ALK 9.5, PH 7.9, Nitrate ~25, Mg 1280, Calcium 441, SG 1.026. The best news is that the frags still look good, and only one shows some very slight stress.

 

[WallyB]

Well, now a couple of days later, I can attest to the ability of PhosGuard. Last week, I got a killer deal on some SPS frags from a guy and decided to move from basically a tank with a couple of LPS to SPS not knowing really what I am doing, but at $5 a frag it was worth a try. When I picked up the frags and told the guy that my P was so high two weeks earlier when I bought a test kit that it was not readable, but that I started NOPOX dosing and have it down to 0.81...... yes 0.81, not 0.081! The experienced reefer seemed to have little confidence that these frags would make it, and recommended GFO. I went on Amazon and searched for GFO, and found a deal on PhosGuard (I thought it was GFO) with next day delivery. I read the directions and put 2/3 cup in a bag and threw it in my sump in the waterfall before my return pump. I measured my P on that day (10/22) at 0.72 with my Hanna low P test kit. I tested it today (4 days later per the instructions) and P tested at 0.02 (which is basically zero because of the accuracy of the test kit). My RODI water actually tests out at 0.03, so I can tell you that this stuff really worked for me. I did notice that my PH had dropped from 8.0 to 7.9, but that may be just the time of day I tested. Here are my other parameters, and I am still carbon dosing (12ml NOPOX per day for my 100gal) to get my Nitrates in order - ALK 9.5, PH 7.9, Nitrate ~25, Mg 1280, Calcium 441, SG 1.026. The best news is that the frags still look good, and only one shows some very slight stress.

One comment. Dropping P that fast on SPS will kill them. Same for any other corals. It may not happen in a day or even a week, but if the corals were acclimated to higher P a drastic P drop is the worst thing you can do. Worse than a P spike.

And even worse than a drop on P is a P that yoyo's up and down. So if you want to continue using phosguard, replace it just before it expires. Monitor your P and Learn how much to use and when you should replace it, before P rises.

Maybe if you are just starting to add frags/corals that come from a lower P system and your tank will be now close. That will be the benefit you seek.

 

[Afterburner]

One comment. Dropping P that fast on SPS will kill them. Same for any other corals. It may not happen in a day or even a week, but if the corals were acclimated to higher P a drastic P drop is the worst thing you can do. Worse than a P spike.

And even worse than a drop on P is a P that yoyo's up and down. So if you want to continue using phosguard, replace it just before it expires. Monitor your P and Learn how much to use and when you should replace it, before P rises.

Maybe if you are just starting to add frags/corals that come from a lower P system and your tank will be now close. That will be the benefit you seek.

That is exactly what I did. I added a bunch of really inexpensive frags from a 0.06 P environment to my 0.72 P tank, and ordered the PhosGuard that day from Amazon (overnight delivery). So far, a week later they all seem fine, but time will tell. I am new to this, so please excuse my ignorance, and thanks for the advice.

 

[Afterburner]

I forgot to mention that I already had some LPS (Green Star Polyps, Hammers, Candy Canes, Kenya Tree, Gorgonian) in the tank and they look fine so far. I just added a bunch more Gorgonians and some weird sponges I found diving yesterday and am trading a few for some more SPS's from the same guy. Hope they survive

 

[Afterburner]

Maybe you can tell me what these are?

 

[WallyB]

Maybe you can tell me what these are?

Good idea to start with cheap corals to learn you lessons on those.

I would say those are sponges. If they are don't expose them to air. They must stay under water.

And don't worry about being new to this hobby. I've been doing this for 20 years and still learning lessons. I tried sps like 4 years ago and still no luck for long term (because I love tinkering)

What I am learning is Stability is the most important thing. Corals will adapt, but they hate change. Fast changes are worst.

 

[Afterburner]

I'm a tinkerer also, so I will try to keep from changing too much at once. I like to do a lot of DIY projects and some even work. I'm not sure those are sponges, but they may be.