What else is in the original "Balling A" and "Balling B" components?

[TexanCanuck]

I have recently switched from using BRS' 2-part additives to Tropic Marin's "All-for-Reef". I'm using a Trident to control the dosing amount based on my alkalinity target. It's only been a few days so I don't yet have any observations to offer.

I switched because I was attracted to the idea of having to dose only a single component that would both keep alkalinity and calcium "balanced" and include trace elements.

Looking ahead, however, I'm trying to figure out what to do IF I find that I'm unable to hold both calcium and alkalinity at target levels with the Trident only adjusting the dose based on the latter.

Here's what I found on Tropic Marin's website:

Note that Tropic Marin's recommendation are to use their original "Balling components" to adjust whichever component isn't meeting target.

My question is simple - is there anything "special" about the original Balling components that would make me want to use them instead of the generic BRS additives (pharmaceutical grade Soda Ash or Calcium Chloride)?

I have a ton of the BRS additives left over and would rather finish them off first.

Am I over-thinking this?

Would love to hear thoughts from @Lou Ekus

 

[rtparty]

You should be basing your AFR dosage on calcium and not alkalinity. Lou mentions this in multiple live YouTube videos.

Balling A is just calcium and Balling B is sodium bicarbonate. Might have a little soda ash mixed in but not much. Just use the BRS chemicals if you need to make slight changes.

 

[TexanCanuck]

Thank you for reminding me!

That's another question I have ... which variable to use as the "control"?

From Tropic Marin's website:

"We recommend using Calcium as the dosage regulator, as conventional test kits are more sensitive (or accurate) in measuring changes in the calcium concentration than changes of the alkalinity from Tropic Marin® All-For-Reef."

However, from BRS' website:

"Start with a daily dose of 5 ml of All-For-Reef per 100 liters (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume. Increase the daily dosage – by continuous control of the alkalinity – weekly by 2.5 ml per 100 liters (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume, until a constant carbonate hardness of 7 to 9°dH is reached"

(emphasis added)

This same guidance is repeated on the websites of several other vendors. I've also noted that the vast majority of R2R members that have posted on the subject claim to be using alkalinity to control the dose.

I'm wondering if the difference is in TM's own explanation ... that "tradition test kits" are more sensitive when measuring Calcium ... while the Trident uses a more robust testing method?

Also ... look at the chart above (the one provided by TM). Here's is my interpretation of their recommendation:

If you look at each row of the table, it appears that the recommended dose of AFR should follow alkalinity in 6 out of 7 cases, while it should follow calcium in only 5 out of 7 cases.

Thoughts?

 

[rtparty]

Thank you for reminding me!

That's another question I have ... which variable to use as the "control"?

From Tropic Marin's website:

"We recommend using Calcium as the dosage regulator, as conventional test kits are more sensitive (or accurate) in measuring changes in the calcium concentration than changes of the alkalinity from Tropic Marin® All-For-Reef."

However, from BRS' website:

"Start with a daily dose of 5 ml of All-For-Reef per 100 liters (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume. Increase the daily dosage – by continuous control of the alkalinity – weekly by 2.5 ml per 100 liters (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume, until a constant carbonate hardness of 7 to 9°dH is reached"

(emphasis added)

This same guidance is repeated on the websites of several other vendors. I've also noted that the vast majority of R2R members that have posted on the subject claim to be using alkalinity to control the dose.

I'm wondering if the difference is in TM's own explanation ... that "tradition test kits" are more sensitive when measuring Calcium ... while the Trident uses a more robust testing method?

Also ... look at the chart above (the one provided by TM). Here's is my interpretation of their recommendation:

If you look at each row of the table, it appears that the recommended dose of AFR should follow alkalinity in 6 out of 7 cases, while it should follow calcium in only 5 out of 7 cases.

Thoughts?

Lou was very clear to follow calcium since it takes 24+ hours for the bacteria to break down formate into alkalinity/carbonate. Randy would be better to talk to about this. My understanding is super limited.

I think Lou even talks about how the alkalinity may never show up on the test kit since the corals are rapidly using it.

BRS just has the instructions from the AFR packaging on their site. I'd trust TM's site more and it lines up with Lou.

I have been running AFR for months on my 50g LPS tank. I can never get numbers to even out and stay consistent. Calcium always rises or alk always drops. If I was keeping this tank long term, I'd switch over to 2 part like my main tank uses.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For corrections, use sodium bicarbonate /carbonate, and calcium chloride. That is what Balling is, but regardless, it is also what to use for any one time correction in any system.

No balanced product (e.g., CaCO3/CO2 reactors, two part systems, one part systems like AFR, or limewater) can always match alk and calcium demand because there can be processes that use or add alkalinity but not calcium.

Rising or falling or dosing nitrate is a big one.

Water changes with a mix not matching the tank is another.

Sulfur denitrators are a big consumer of alk.

Tap water adding alk or calcium.

Some amino acid supplements may impact alkalinity.

 

[TexanCanuck]

Thanks, @Randy Holmes-Farley !

do you have any thoughts on whether to use Alk or Ca as the “control” for dosing A4R?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, @Randy Holmes-Farley !

do you have any thoughts on whether to use Alk or Ca as the “control” for dosing A4R?

As folks noted above, it depends on what you are observing with respect to alk and calcium in your system.

I'm personally not a huge fan of it due to testing complications, but if I were to use it, I'd probably pick a dose that maintaining alk long term (if possible), and then see what happens to calcium.

If calcium was rising, I'd back off on the dose and replace some with alk supplement. It it was falling, I'd dose some calcium chloride to keep it up.

 

[TexanCanuck]

Thanks Randy!