What's the REAL cost of your salt mix and how many gallons does it make? | BRStv Investigates

[randyBRS]

@randyBRS - great video! I would note that the differences between some of the mixes are within measurement error. I highly doubt your scale is accurate to within a half gram when you measure 25056.5g! Regardless it's great information to have. You should post the actual number of gallons each mix makes at 35 ppt on your web site so it's easier to find and compare.

Lol.. I'm also sure the 1/2 gram here or there really made no significant difference, but pleasantly surprised when the 20gal tanks for the following test each came out to be exactly 35ppt based on my calculations from this test.

 

[randyBRS]

I dont have to add to it all the time every once in a while you get a box thats a little low and you have to bump it up a little.
I doubt that most people even test their salt mix most people just assume you get what its says on the box. That should be the next BRS test if these salt mixes match their claimed levels.

This might be something to try and test for in the future. My biggest concern is that the stated parameters for each salt is also inline with their claimed salinity, so trying to compare that in terms of salinity that most reefers would actually use may start to get confusing as to what their supposed to be and what the actually are.

 

[miyags]

Reef salts should be sold per gallon and spect. at 35ppt

 

[andrewkw]

This might be something to try and test for in the future. My biggest concern is that the stated parameters for each salt is also inline with their claimed salinity, so trying to compare that in terms of salinity that most reefers would actually use may start to get confusing as to what their supposed to be and what the actually are.

And there is some variation bucket to bucket or at least batch to batch. Seems like a lot of work for you guys for minimal return. Either you care enough to test your freshly mixed salt once in a while or you don't. The reality is if you are doing small water changes and testing your display tanks frequently enough you should catch any bad batch before it becomes a real problem. If for some reason you have to do a massive water change you're probably going to check the freshly mixed salt first.

 

[Sleepydoc]

Reef salts should be sold and spect. at 35ppt

Agree! At very least, they should specify “makes xxx gallons at yy ppt” so you have an accurate comparison. It’s not unlike the box of cookie mix saying it makes 4 dozen cookies when each cookie needs to be the size of a quarter to make that many.

I dont have to add to it all the time every once in a while you get a box thats a little low and you have to bump it up a little.

I doubt that most people even test their salt mix most people just assume you get what its says on the box. That should be the next BRS test if these salt mixes match their claimed levels.

I nice addition to this video would have been to test the parameters of each brand of salt mix when they were mixed to 35 ppt. The significance and/or value of the individual supplement levels really depends on each person’s needs and application. If you have a FOWLR tank, they are really not significant as long as they are somewhere in the normal range. ‘Reef’ salts typically have higher Ca/Mg/Alk levels and can allow people with lower demand tanks to get buy just with water changes.

Even using the most expensive BRS option (single gallon bag of the pharma-grade mix,) only costs $7 per gallon, so if you are already dosing, then the cost of adding extra Ca or Alk is really pretty trivial and won’t affect your costs significantly. (I know many people who dose actually buy the non-reef salt and increase the dosing slightly because it’s cheaper) Consistency is the bigger issue, but even there, doing a 10% water change will not cause a significant swing, so as long as the batch to batch variation is within 10-15% it shouldn’t affect your tank at all.

 

[Sleepydoc]

Just for kicks, I looked up instant ocean salt to compare the cost of supplementing additives. The regular IO mix purportedly gives an alkalinity of 11 dKH. Reef Crystals is supposedly 14 dKH. (Disclaimer - I didn't confirm this nor did I check to see what SG this was mixed at. I was simply looking for some numbers as an example)

Doing the math:

• From the BRS calculator it takes 21.4 ml of alkalinity supplement to raise the dKH of 10 gallons of water from 11 to 14, or 2.14 ml/gallon
• 1 gallon = 3785 ml/2.14 ml = 1768.7 gallons (i.e. 1 gallon of Alkalinity supplement can raise the dKH of 1768.7 gallons of water from 11 to 13)
• A one gallon pouch of the BRS Pharma grade soda ash costs $7: $7.00 per gallon/1768.7 gallons treated = $0.00396

This means it costs about 0.4 cents per gallon to raise the dKH by 3, compared to about 50 cents/gallon for the salt mixes.

The same page lists the Ca of plain Instant Ocean salt mix at 400, 490 for the Reef Crystals. Doing a similar calculation yields 1.7 cents per gallon to raise the Ca level by 90.

I try to do weekly 15 gallon water changes. Adding roughly 2 cents per gallon increases my cost by $15.60 per year from $390 to $405. Not really enough to notice!

 

[Williamson’s Reef]

Great video ! Thank you!

 

[randyBRS]

I nice addition to this video would have been to test the parameters of each brand of salt mix when they were mixed to 35 ppt. The significance and/or value of the individual supplement levels really depends on each person’s needs and application. If you have a FOWLR tank, they are really not significant as long as they are somewhere in the normal range. ‘Reef’ salts typically have higher Ca/Mg/Alk levels and can allow people with lower demand tanks to get buy just with water changes.

The parameters and how they shift from freshly mixed to storage over time (without circulation and heating) is the premise of the next video. I'm almost a week into the testing, with some interesting results so far!

 

[twotangs]

may just have to try some different salts

 

[Dustin A.]

The parameters and how they shift from freshly mixed to storage over time (without circulation and heating) is the premise of the next video. I'm almost a week into the testing, with some interesting results so far!

Great videos, I'm looking forward to the next one. Since I can only make water in batches of 30g each, doing a 80g water change requires me to have to let some of the water sit for days before use.

 

[Richard Hercher]

Dumb question: I’ve got a FOWLR and have used the IO salt for 7 years. Reading a lot about the Reef Crystal leaving a strange brown precipitate in mixing buckets. Has anyone ever done an ICP test on just a bucket of fresh reef crystal? Just curious.

 

[Billldg]

I use HW marine reefer because of the BRS 52 weeks of reefing series and that's what you all used for the 160, since then I continued using HW marine because I liked the parameters when mixed to 1.026, didnt mind that it cost a little more at the time. The only problem was availability, could only get it thru BRS, so if I ran short I had to order a new box and wait for it to arrive. I may switch only because of that reason.

I am interested in how parameters change after a week or two in storage.

 

[randyBRS]

Dumb question: I’ve got a FOWLR and have used the IO salt for 7 years. Reading a lot about the Reef Crystal leaving a strange brown precipitate in mixing buckets. Has anyone ever done an ICP test on just a bucket of fresh reef crystal? Just curious.

I'd venture to guess that most of the reports of brown precipitate is simply calcium carbonate and is likely not isolated to just IORC salts. What we'll find out in the next rounds of salt testing is how quickly (if at all) these salts begin to trend away from their parameters after being freshly mixed. On top of that, I plan even more follow along tests to see if heating and continually mixing the salt water will hinder or accelerate those shifting parameters.

 

[Kamal.to]

I'd venture to guess that most of the reports of brown precipitate is simply calcium carbonate and is likely not isolated to just IORC salts. What we'll find out in the next rounds of salt testing is how quickly (if at all) these salts begin to trend away from their parameters after being freshly mixed. On top of that, I plan even more follow along tests to see if heating and continually mixing the salt water will hinder or accelerate those shifting parameters.

Yes!!!!!!! Excited for the results

 

[Reafer]

Cost doesn't matter. At these price differences if it did, then I would just swap a venti for a grande one day a week. Biggest thing for me is a brand that mixes clear and consistent. Dealing with crud in the barrel with some mixes simply costs more money if you value your time and factor in cleaning materials., those points far out way the very little you save with other brands.

This is why I prefer HW Marine Mix. Mixes to my parameters without any additions, except when I start to see Bryopsis I'll bump the already high Mag with Brightwell to keep that at bay.

If you only do small water changes, then yeah don't worry about it.

Cost doesn't matter. At these price differences if it did, then I would just swap a venti for a grande one day a week. Biggest thing for me is a brand that mixes clear and consistent. Dealing with crud in the barrel with some mixes simply costs more money if you value your time and factor in cleaning materials., those points far out way the very little you save with other brands.

This is why I prefer HW Marine Mix. Mixes to my parameters without any additions, except when I start to see Bryopsis I'll bump the already high Mag with Brightwell to keep that at bay.

Well the cost they're referring to is at the prices they sell the salt, and also only the brands of salt they sell. I would look other salts than this list to make your final decisions.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I'd venture to guess that most of the reports of brown precipitate is simply calcium carbonate and is likely not isolated to just IORC salts. What we'll find out in the next rounds of salt testing is how quickly (if at all) these salts begin to trend away from their parameters after being freshly mixed. On top of that, I plan even more follow along tests to see if heating and continually mixing the salt water will hinder or accelerate those shifting parameters.

Except calcium carbonate is not brown, so there's something else there.

Reef Crystals supposedly has a Ca of 890 and an Alk of 1400. With those levels I can believe that CaCO3 will precipitate out.

 

[randyBRS]

Except calcium carbonate is not brown, so there's something else there.
Reef Crystals supposedly has a Ca of 890 and an Alk of 1400. With those levels I can believe that CaCO3 will precipitate out.

I agree, it very well could be other unknown insolubles from the source materials manufacturers choose for things like calcium chloride, sodium bicarb, or sodium carbonate or others. We definitely learned this first hand with our testing series on the various additives for hobby use and pharma grade.

I can also agree that CaCO3 could precipitate out in elevated levels and when/if it does, it could perhaps appear brown when coupled with the tinged unknown insolubles from the various salt mix ingredients (depending on source material purity).

 

[EddieJ]

We have heard this complaint from the beginning of time about the brown film from IO and IO Reef Crystals. The type A personality can't handle it in the least that is for sure! LOL! In any event, is your tank brown? I believe not and that brown film is just a biproduct of the initial mix. If IO is impure and this brown film was detrimental to tanks I don't believe Jason Fox would subject his what, 2000 or so corals to it or the absolutely thousands of reefers who use it. And the end of the day this is a hobby, and it's best to make the choice that makes you feel best. Thanks again Randy for your work with the salt mixes!

 

[JDowns]

Just consider secondary uses for that buildup in your mixing container. ;Hilarious

 

[Richard Hercher]

Ok, so If someone were to do the ICP test on a fresh bucket of newly mixed Reef crystal (or any other salt) to get a feel for what all is in it, it would be a good idea to do a control on the bucket first— one test of the RO in bucket after being brought up to Mixing temp (just before adding the salt) and one after the salt has been added.

Here I am, telling someone to run $100 worth of tests on $0.32worth of salt and water

We have heard this complaint from the beginning of time about the brown film from IO and IO Reef Crystals. The type A personality can't handle it in the least that is for sure! LOL! In any event, is your tank brown? I believe not and that brown film is just a biproduct of the initial mix. If IO is impure and this brown film was detrimental to tanks I don't believe Jason Fox would subject his what, 2000 or so corals to it or the absolutely thousands of reefers who use it. And the end of the day this is a hobby, and it's best to make the choice that makes you feel best. Thanks again Randy for your work with the salt mixes!