Why are some people anti-waterchanges?

[jda]

The details matter. Every time a thread like this comes up somebody sees no water change and thinks that people just never, ever do them. Many have had bad things happen because of it. This can only be a good discussion if everything is on the money. It is SO much better to have a discussion that we don't do regular ones, but we will do them if XYZ is off by ABC, or the like - this is productive.

Heard a basement farmer on one of these threads say that they ship a few hundred gallons of water a month when sales are good. I will put a comment in the video asking how many gallons of saltwater that they have to replace via shipping - probably never get an answer.

The most important things in life can make a huge difference to get picky about. The top in anything are just a few percent better than the average people, but in many different ways. I get that some people don't care about nuance, but some do. Maybe we should not get picky... people can just ask Dr. @Randy Holmes-Farley about that element that the corals use - you know, THAT one... it is not important enough to get picky about.

I don't care if anybody wants to change limited water, or not. I just want the actual details and facts out there so that people can make good choices. I have seen too many make bad ones based on bad data and stuff.

 

[buruskeee]

The details matter. Every time a thread like this comes up somebody sees no water change and thinks that people just never, ever do them. Many have had bad things happen because of it. This can only be a good discussion if everything is on the money. It is SO much better to have a discussion that we don't do regular ones, but we will do them if XYZ is off by ABC, or the like - this is productive.

Heard a basement farmer on one of these threads say that they ship a few hundred gallons of water a month when sales are good. I will put a comment in the video asking how many gallons of saltwater that they have to replace via shipping - probably never get an answer.

The most important things in life can make a huge difference to get picky about. The top in anything are just a few percent better than the average people, but in many different ways. I get that some people don't care about nuance, but some do. Maybe we should not get picky... people can just ask Dr. @Randy Holmes-Farley about that element that the corals use - you know, THAT one... it is not important enough to get picky about.

I don't care if anybody wants to change limited water, or not. I just want the actual details and facts out there so that people can make good choices. I have seen too many make bad ones based on bad data and stuff.

Well then according to your definition, there will be absolutely ZERO systems to fit your description of a requirement to discuss as this thread is apparently about an absolutely zero water removed system from birth. Anyone that has had to drip acclimate any livestock is already disqualified.

When folks do a “no WC” method, it’s with the thought that very minimal (a non factor) of water may get replaced over a long period of time.

The whole point of the moonshiners method is to get the absolute most stable environment possible, something frequent water changes is extremely difficult to accomplish (at the level of stability sought after, not relative to the normal thought of stability in the reef world).

 

[jda]

That is exactly the point. Instead of people making up their own definitions of what words mean, use the right words and then people can discuss, learn, etc.

We have ranges from no water changes except for 100% once a year, no water changes except for daily 1 gallon through ATO, no water changes except when I overdose, no water changes but I do vacuum my gravel with 50 gallons removed a few times a year, etc. Nobody can get a baseline with all of these one-off definitions.

I don't make up what words mean, but I do try and help people when they did something because other people did not use words right.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The whole point of the moonshiners method is to get the absolute most stable environment possible, something frequent water changes is extremely difficult to accomplish (at the level of stability sought after, not relative to the normal thought of stability in the reef world).

Unless you believe that no salt mix is suitably reproducible batch to batch, then frequent tiny water changes don’t cause any instability. Changes in parameters from 24 changes of 0.04% each day would look no different than changes from foods, consumption by organisms, simple precipitation, being skimmed out, bound to GAC, etc.

 

[Raul-7]

I would argue waterchanges, especially when smaller and more frequent, lead to more overall stability than less or no waterchanges.

Removes build up of DOCs, toxins, and excess nutrients. Moreover, adds more trace elements and nutrients/minerals.

It's basically bringing the system back into equilibrium.

 

[GARRIGA]

Well then according to your definition, there will be absolutely ZERO systems to fit your description of a requirement to discuss as this thread is apparently about an absolutely zero water removed system from birth. Anyone that has had to drip acclimate any livestock is already disqualified.

When folks do a “no WC” method, it’s with the thought that very minimal (a non factor) of water may get replaced over a long period of time.

The whole point of the moonshiners method is to get the absolute most stable environment possible, something frequent water changes is extremely difficult to accomplish (at the level of stability sought after, not relative to the normal thought of stability in the reef world).

Test tank running two year plus with zero WC and fed heavily. No corals and no consumers of alkalinity but that hasn't changed other than a failed attempt at adding Kalk for the purpose of raising pH which took dkh to 14 and raised pH merely 0.2 because room co2 must be through the roof. Too many consumers of oxygen live here. Added Seachem Acid Buffer to lower it back to 9 where it remains as long as nitrates remain under 20. Only time it drops to 5 when nitrates allowed to rise above 160 as part of my experiment. Literally can test one and know the other it's that stable.

I consider this test tank ultra stable and main reason I don't do water changes. Now raising GHA (what we grow in an ATS) on purpose to see how that solves my pH concerns before switching to something like Dragon's Breath so I can have an attractive display while I go mad scientist to my heart's content. Started adding ChaetoGro assuming some elements preferable to macroalgae have been depleted. Eventual ICP will provide where exactly I'm short but for now I'll go off how the macro responds since it's probably not an exact measurement based on a study Randy recently posted. In the end, seems only valid reason to change water is the removal of some unknown and yet I seek solving that by means other than a WC.

In my opinion (for what that's worth) might be better energy spent trying to solve how to satisfy the no WC crowd vs just saying no as the only response. World advances due to those who chose to push the envelope vs follow the established dogma. Was a time zero nutrients was favorable. How many today attempting a hair line range on phosphate were not in that camp. Imagine those saying a recent study suggest zero is not a hero and all they were told was that's insane

 

[Labridaedicted]

I'm not anti-water change, bit honesty since I've started RM, I haven't needed to. Between my skimmer, ozone, and intermittent carbon I'm not really concerned about trace DOC and toxins as they should be broken down to harmless compounds or removed entirely with carbon.

Also, salt is expensive and has fluctuations in element concentration which can be significant when you're doing 60 - 70 gallon water changes every time.

I'll say, I don't miss not doing them. Got too many other tasks to take care of.

 

[SirRoadwolf]

I am one of those who are anti-water changes. I like stability. Tho my fiancee is suggesting that we should do a water change - but she is used for freshwater tanks. It has been a good 2 years or so since I've even done a partial >10% water change. But the readings are still good and the SPS coral is growing and doing well.

I understand there could be other toxins in the tank. I wonder if running a carbon filter off of the sump would help in that case?

But when I did do partial water changes, I would do about a 40% - 50% change. It obviously would shock the corals a bit. But I had a 35 gallon rubbermaid garbage tote which I kept around specifically for changes - I would fill that up with my RO/DI water from my 55gal water storage drum. I would then add enough salt to that and keep a powerhead in there to mix it up and I would also throw a heater into it to bring it to the right temp.

I would add enough salt to bring it to about 1.046 in salinity. Then I would let it sit for a day and let my 55gal freshwater RO/DI tank refill.

Then I would drain my sump directly to the drain while I also added the water from the tote, and my RO/DI water system automatically added freshwater to compensate for lower water in the return chamber.

The freshwater and the 1.046 water would mix and would balance out to about 1.026 or so. I didn't really do math or anything to figure this out, just trial and error and magically found the right combo.

In any case for a 130~ gal system, this was about the largest change that I could really do. And whether or not some of the new water ends up going down the drain, I have no clue as the system is draining while it is refilling.

I tend to keep salt on hand for emergencies - just in case. But luckily I haven't needed to change anything in the last 2 years. Oddly enough according to my readings as attached, the salinity which I used to like to keep around 1.026 had risen to 1.029 or 1.030 since the last water change with no added salt water / salt over the last 2 years. But that could be because of a higher KH which might be altering the specific gravity in other ways - not just salt?

That being said. We added 6 new fish - the first new fish to be in the aquarium in a year or so. Green Chromis that my partner wanted to get. It has been 2 weeks now, and only 4 chromis remain. They do look healthy but the two that we lost seemed to just disappear after looking like they were hanging out on their own for a while. So my partner is saying I might need a water change. I am not sure about that - it could just be parasites and I didn't QT them, so...

 

[jda]

First, hyper salinity water is not stable and things likely precipitated out of it. Second, even if it did not, mixing with fresh and then using it before it is fully mixed can be toxic. This is not a great water change strategy - maybe best not to change water at all this. However, nothing should even notice if you change water the right way - if you can tell, then you did not mix up the salt right.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I tend to keep salt on hand for emergencies - just in case. But luckily I haven't needed to change anything in the last 2 years. Oddly enough according to my readings as attached, the salinity which I used to like to keep around 1.026 had risen to 1.029 or 1.030 since the last water change with no added salt water / salt over the last 2 years. But that could be because of a higher KH which might be altering the specific gravity in other ways - not just salt?

What are you using to maintain alk and calcium? Some methods boost salinity and some do not.

 

[buruskeee]

the salinity which I used to like to keep around 1.026 had risen to 1.029 or 1.030 since the last water change with no added salt water / salt over the last 2 years

If you’re doing 2 part, salinity will creep up, and you have to lower it through water changes. Kalk, CalcReactor, or AFR dosing (maybe a couple other products) are the only ways to prevent salinity creeping up.

Also, how are you tracking your trace and minor elements? I see you have written down parameters - are you not ICP testing? No water change methods require very close monitoring of your water quality through scheduled ICP testing.

 

[SirRoadwolf]

What are you using to maintain alk and calcium? Some methods boost salinity and some do not.

I think you are onto something there. I am using a dosing system to add in the 2 part calcium and ph balancer dosing. I am also dosing in a little hydrogen peroxide.

I looked into Kalk a while back but maybe it is worth while looking into it again.


As far as the mixing method - I pump the high salt water and the RO/DI top off water into my custom made sump in my basement, in the return chamber in place of the skimmer and mix it there with several powerheads before it gets pumped back into the tank after flowing through the rest of the sump. Measuring at the tank's outfall it gives me a solid 1.026

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think you are onto something there. I am using a dosing system to add in the 2 part calcium and ph balancer dosing. I am also dosing in a little hydrogen peroxide.

All two part systems and Balling systems raise salinity.

Ballpark estimate is a ~32% rise in salinity over 1 year of adding 8 ppm of calcium and 1.1 dKH of alkalinity per day without water changes. Water changes, of course, lower the salinity rise.

32% rise is 35 ppt to 46.2 ppt or sg = 1.026 to 1.034. Way too much to not correct for.

 

[jda]

As far as the mixing method - I pump the high salt water and the RO/DI top off water into my custom made sump in my basement, in the return chamber in place of the skimmer and mix it there with several powerheads before it gets pumped back into the tank after flowing through the rest of the sump. Measuring at the tank's outfall it gives me a solid 1.026

That probably needs a few hours to mix, at least. I imagine that if you tested it there are things that would be off... hyper salinity does not always come back down to the same values. I would not risk it when you can pump in just 1.026 mix and not have to worry about anything. There is more to this than the salinity.

 

[MichaelReefer]

Haven't done a water change in years and I dont have any issues *shrug*

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Haven't done a water change in years and I dont have any issues *shrug*

Of course, the follow up response to your statement that you also do not know if anything might improve if you did do water changes.

Your experience, and many like you, clearly show that water changes are not “needed”. What it does not show is whether they are useful.

 

[besskurz]

Reefing is not like a train on a track.
Reefing is like hiking on a trail.

There are many ways to get there.

 

[saltwaterpicaso]

5 years no water change . i feel it was way more work with testing and dosing and was more costly. even with icp testing something somewhere went wrong and the tank crashed. a year ago i went back to 10g weekly on a 150g system. no more dosing i test weekly it takes me about an hour a week to do it all and the tank looks the best it ever has growth has exploded zoas that were closed up for months are back open and growing. i even stopped using fuana marine and went back to plain old reef crystals . overall im happier and so is the tank. i still to this day have no clue what caused the crash becouse everything showed normal. but i do know for the 10 plus years that i did weekly water changes i never had an tank crash or any issue for that matter. so for me i will stay with the weekly changes

 

[bakbay]

5 years no water change . i feel it was way more work with testing and dosing and was more costly. even with icp testing something somewhere went wrong and the tank crashed. a year ago i went back to 10g weekly on a 150g system. no more dosing i test weekly it takes me about an hour a week to do it all and the tank looks the best it ever has growth has exploded zoas that were closed up for months are back open and growing. i even stopped using fuana marine and went back to plain old reef crystals . overall im happier and so is the tank. i still to this day have no clue what caused the crash becouse everything showed normal. but i do know for the 10 plus years that i did weekly water changes i never had an tank crash or any issue for that matter. so for me i will stay with the weekly changes

I’m 3+ years in with no WC and SPS still growing like crazy (minus a few stubborn frags). My previous tank went 6yrs before the upgrade - no issues. I hope mine doesn’t crash like yours but so far, tank is super stable w/o any issues.