Why cant u keep sps?

[ycnibrc]

Well first and for most im not a scientist or marine biologist my theory base only on my experience and observation on my reef tank. I just want to help those that have problems keeping sps. In this discussion please keep it positive and dont make it to “i know better than u or led is better than halide “. We are not here to discuss equipment or brand.
Now lets me start out what i have seen so far. I have successful sps tank in 2008 and now i just start my tank again for 2.5years. U can read more here

Build Thread - 360g zeovit staghorn dominate reef tank

Do you think the halide just doesn’t show the colors as well as the LEDs, or do the colors physically change once you switch? (Currently running a 150w MH)

www.reef2reef.com

Most of the threads that have problems seem to have a common denominator i will cone back to this. But all the questions regarding the problem tank are
1)Whats your parameters
2)what kind of light/light schedule?
3)what kind of pump and flow?
4)keep alk, ca and mag stable
5) ICP test
6)nitrate/phosphate level
7)water change
8)feeding
9)copper/iron over dose aka magnet rust
10)salt

Ok lets presume u can fix all of these but still your tank don’t do well. What can cause that?
Well lets go back to the common denominators. All tank nowadays start with dry/dead rock aka not from the ocean. Live rock can be misunderstood, a piece of rock in my mature tank i can call it live rock but its not because i start just like everyone else with dry rock. Years ago we actually get live rock from the ocean which carry multiple strain of beneficial bacteria then we kept it in our tank for a year or more which create a nice population of bacteria for the corals especially sps.
Now we all start from dry rock and we started the cycle then start adding corals in after 6 mons. Presumption your tank parameters are good also everything else , your frags will be nice and growing for a few months then all of a sudden start to look bad then die normally around 9 mons to a year. This too me is an indication thats your tank dont have multiple bacteria strain which corals need. Probably u didnt add any additional bacteria to your tank and im not talking about carbon bacteria to reduce phosphate or nitrate.
Further more we buy only frags nowadays which different from before when we bought colonies. Wild colonies from the ocean carry those beneficial bacteria which can populate in your tank. I run zeovit which is a system heavily base on bacteria but there are many others system which offer the same.
So to end my thoughts the biggest change that i have seen is the lacking of beneficial bacteria which can cause your reef tank not capable to sustain a healthy sps.
I hope that i can help in anyway getting your tank better and healthier and with healthy tank make the hobby more enjoyable and grow

Anthony

 

[homer1475]

While I tend to agree with you, I'm going to play the devils advocate here.....

What makes you think it's a lack of bacteria? We have no way to test for this, other then anecdotal evidence from experienced reefers. But you have other people who throw SPS in a dead dry rock tank and they thrive(not too many do this, but well known experienced reefers have done it without issue).

I hoenstly think it comes down to just plain old experience and how to recognize an issue before it becomes an actual issue.

 

[ScottB]

I think your premise is valid, and supported by some of the research presented here. (I know you read this with interest as I did, but for the benefit of those who missed it):

Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock

About this article This article describes an experiment documenting the effects of live rock in a newly established aquarium. While I’ve tried to tell the story as briefly as I can, it’s the story of a month-long study of replicated tanks, with analysis of both water chemistry and the microbial...

www.reef2reef.com

I help out at my LFS. He probably sells 1 system a week. We both press hard on customers to load up on live rock despite the expense. Why? Because our experience suggests a strong correlation between adequate live rock and medium term system success. If the system goes too long without achieving stability, people throw in the towel too often.

I hope I never have to replace my 10 year old rock. Stuff is priceless IMO.

 

[raketemensch]

I help out at my LFS. He probably sells 1 system a week. We both press hard on customers to load up on live rock despite the expense. Why? Because our experience suggests a strong correlation between adequate live rock and medium term system success. If the system goes too long without achieving stability, people throw in the towel too often.

I hope I never have to replace my 10 year old rock. Stuff is priceless IMO.

This would seem to back that up:

Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock

Studying the effects of live rock in a newly established aquarium shows that high-quality live rock promotes the rapid establishment of an effective biological filter and a microbial community similar to those found in mature reef tanks.

www.reef2reef.com

You can get bacteria growing on new rock, but it's different bacteria. We still don't know how that effects everything, but we can identify different strains.

The next article will cover the biospira/dr. tim's bacteria methods, and I'm really looking forward to that.

 

[SeaDweller]

Great post Anthony. I hope it gets many people to think about their systems. I agree with you on many points, and my live rock is Indonesian live rock, from 2004. I bought it back then from will of AquaSD when he was running ops out of his garage, some of my rock is even older than that.

here’s my take on it. Yes bacteria is very underrated in the hobby and especially for SPS. I do think they need it and I do dose bacteria too, mainly to diversify the population and ecosystem. Lou Ekus put it the best way: bacteria is the main food source of PO4 for corals and it’s the main way they get it. So I do think bacteria help with the overall system, and for corals, to boot.

but honestly it DOES come down to the skill of the reefer too. Lighting, flow, salt, to me these are all secondary. Keeping parameters stable in a certain range and knowing what TF you’re doing helps ALOT. Take @bubbaque for example, he started his new system with brand new everything. Maybe lost one or two frags? System took off like nothing. I started a frag tank with some rock from my tank, brand new water, and very minimal equipment that housed a ton of frags for a couple months before they went into my current system. Zero losses. There are plenty who get into it who read a lot and “know” what to do, until they get into a situation and then don’t know what to do. It’s experience.

there’s a lot of knee jerk reaction I feel, and I think the biggest down fall for a lot of people who try sps is the fact they don’t provide enough nutrients aka building blocks aka N and P aka fish poop because they don’t feed enough to their fish/tanks. People get into researching the hobby and don’t realize they need to feed their dang fish and not worry about low levels of this and that and how to not grow algae.

like people will run GFO on a new tank. Add macro to a new tank. Turf scrubber, all this junk; biopellets, carbon dose, etc. everything has a use but it’s important to know WHEN to implement them.

Having a diverse population helps for sure no doubt but I hope noobs just don’t think adding bacteria and all is good in the world of SPS... it does come down to skill, diligence and experience I feel.

 

[ycnibrc]

While I tend to agree with you, I'm going to play the devils advocate here.....

What makes you think it's a lack of bacteria? We have no way to test for this, other then anecdotal evidence from experienced reefers. But you have other people who throw SPS in a dead dry rock tank and they thrive(not too many do this, but well known experienced reefers have done it without issue).

I hoenstly think it comes down to just plain old experience and how to recognize an issue before it becomes an actual issue.

Because i have seen so many tank that have the same problem and i have done some reading on bacteria. The old in the ocean live rock is much better with multiple strain of bacteria. When u mention well known experience reefers may be they have follow a system like aquaforest , redsea , triton , zeovit ect but they dont mention it. All of those manufacture dosing all contain bacteria source.

 

[ycnibrc]

Great post Anthony. I hope it gets many people to think about their systems. I agree with you on many points, and my live rock is Indonesian live rock, from 2004. I bought it back then from will of AquaSD when he was running ops out of his garage, some of my rock is even older than that.

here’s my take on it. Yes bacteria is very underrated in the hobby and especially for SPS. I do think they need it and I do dose bacteria too, mainly to diversify the population and ecosystem. Lou Ekus put it the best way: bacteria is the main food source of PO4 for corals and it’s the main way they get it. So I do think bacteria help with the overall system, and for corals, to boot.

but honestly it DOES come down to the skill of the reefer too. Lighting, flow, salt, to me these are all secondary. Keeping parameters stable in a certain range and knowing what TF you’re doing helps ALOT. Take @bubbaque for example, he started his new system with brand new everything. Maybe lost one or two frags? System took off like nothing. I started a frag tank with some rock from my tank, brand new water, and very minimal equipment that housed a ton of frags for a couple months before they went into my current system. Zero losses. There are plenty who get into it who read a lot and “know” what to do, until they get into a situation and then don’t know what to do. It’s experience.

there’s a lot of knee jerk reaction I feel, and I think the biggest down fall for a lot of people who try sps is the fact they don’t provide enough nutrients aka building blocks aka N and P aka fish poop because they don’t feed enough to their fish/tanks. People get into researching the hobby and don’t realize they need to feed their dang fish and not worry about low levels of this and that and how to not grow algae.

like people will run GFO on a new tank. Add macro to a new tank. Turf scrubber, all this junk; biopellets, carbon dose, etc. everything has a use but it’s important to know WHEN to implement them.

Having a diverse population helps for sure no doubt but I hope noobs just don’t think adding bacteria and all is good in the world of SPS... it does come down to skill, diligence and experience I feel.

No doubt experience help a lot however im trying to figure out what is the main cause of failing in sps. So many thread that i read state that their parameters are perfect also for flow and light and equipment now i have to take their word for it trying to figure whats the cause. Many are not beginner. And on the other hand reefer like bubba have a great tank not because he has more experience what did he do in his tank to make a different.
I hope that the successful sps keeper can contribute and together we can find the cause of sps failing.

 

[ScottB]

Because i have seen so many tank that have the same problem and i have done some reading on bacteria. The old in the ocean live rock is much better with multiple strain of bacteria. When u mention well known experience reefers may be they have follow a system like aquaforest , redsea , triton , zeovit ect but they dont mention it. All of those manufacture dosing all contain bacteria source.

IIRC you practise the zeovit method. Is this a supplement for ocean rock, or in replacement of it? I have seen your sticks Anthony so I am listening.

I will also shout out agreement with @SeaDweller that every tank should have fish turds flying around the water column. Tang turds in particular (volume allowing).

 

[sixty_reefer]

Really like we’re this discussion is going, and the simple answer could be that a system is not truly stable until a efficient microbe population is in place, One small trick that could be a benefit for some is to look for fresh import at the LFS. Grabbing small pieces of live rock to seed the tank with all the different strains. I hope the recent studies do not stop people from using dead rock and man made rock, it’s very important for the hobby to use alternatives to real live rock to start a tank and stop sponsoring the breakdown of natural reefs. I also believe that a study should be done on how to achieve the same results using environmental friendly alternatives.

 

[homer1475]

Because i have seen so many tank that have the same problem and i have done some reading on bacteria. The old in the ocean live rock is much better with multiple strain of bacteria. When u mention well known experience reefers may be they have follow a system like aquaforest , redsea , triton , zeovit ect but they dont mention it. All of those manufacture dosing all contain bacteria source.

No doubt, and I believe you may be onto something.

My biocube when I started back in the hobby was all live ocean rock. That tank thrived and I could grow any LPS, SPS, or softie in it. I got a bigger tank and started with all dry pukani rock, and just transferred my fish and corals, nothing else. I had nothing but problems and lost 99% of my coral even though all parameters were within range.

Fast forward 2 years and I bought someones live rock(real ocean live rock) that was tearing down their tank. I rebooted my tank with this rock taking all the pukani out. Now my tank is thriving again with nothing changing other then the rock, and I would guess the bacteria needed to support the corals from said rock.

So I would truly think your onto something with this and would love to see this discussion go further with some more of the well known SPS guru's we have around.

Following for sure!

 

[ycnibrc]

IIRC you practise the zeovit method. Is this a supplement for ocean rock, or in replacement of it? I have seen your sticks Anthony so I am listening.

I will also shout out agreement with @SeaDweller that every tank should have fish turds flying around the water column. Tang turds in particular (volume allowing).

The old live rock from the ocean came with multiple strain of bacteria so back then all we have to do is to wait for the tank to be mature then maintain the parameters then we are good.
Now i have seen tank from my club members that 3 to 4 year old and still no grow and can’t keep sps. The only different from me to them is i dose bacteria and they are not.
I read this article about BMC aka beneficial micronism for corals and definitely beneficial bacteria help sps to be more healthy.

Beneficial Microorganisms for Corals (BMC): Proposed Mechanisms for Coral Health and Resilience

The symbiotic association between the coral animal and its endosymbiotic dinoflagellate partner Symbiodinium is central to the success of corals. However, an array of other microorganisms associated with coral (i.e., Bacteria, Archaea, Fungi, and viruses) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[ycnibrc]

Really like we’re this discussion is going, and the simple answer could be that a system is not truly stable until a efficient microbe population is in place, One small trick that could be a benefit for some is to look for fresh import at the LFS. Grabbing small pieces of live rock to seed the tank with all the different strains. I hope the recent studies do not stop people from using dead rock and man made rock, it’s very important for the hobby to use alternatives to real live rock to start a tank and stop sponsoring the breakdown of natural reefs. I also believe that a study should be done on how to achieve the same results using environmental friendly alternatives.

I started my tank with all dead dry rock however i seed it since the beginning with additional bacteria and within 2.5 years since start i can grow most if my frags to colony size.
Every problem tank thread the question never get to ask is do u dose additional beneficial bacteria?

 

[ycnibrc]

No doubt, and I believe you may be onto something.

My biocube when I started back in the hobby was all live ocean rock. That tank thrived and I could grow any LPS, SPS, or softie in it. I got a bigger tank and started with all dry pukani rock, and just transferred my fish and corals, nothing else. I had nothing but problems and lost 99% of my coral even though all parameters were within range.

Fast forward 2 years and I bought someones live rock(real ocean live rock) that was tearing down their tank. I rebooted my tank with this rock taking all the pukani out. Now my tank is thriving again with nothing changing other then the rock, and I would guess the bacteria needed to support the corals from said rock.

So I would truly think your onto something with this and would love to see this discussion go further with some more of the well known SPS guru's we have around.

Following for sure!

I wish that BRS can do an experiment on this and see if the different between dry rock and real live rock can make a different in sps keeping.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I started my tank with all dead dry rock however i seed it since the beginning with additional bacteria and within 2.5 years since start i can grow most if my frags to colony size.
Every problem tank thread the question never get to ask is do u dose additional beneficial bacteria?

I completely agree with you, until recently Bacteria was only discussed during tank cycling and then just put on aside and forgotten. I truly believe that most tank issues could be just resolved with addition of beneficial microbes including algae outbreaks I do try and refrain myself to speak as it can be looked as controversial.

 

[ycnibrc]

I completely agree with you, until recently Bacteria was only discussed during tank cycling and then just put on aside and forgotten. I truly believe that most tank issues could be just resolved with addition of beneficial microbes including algae outbreaks I do try and refrain myself to speak as it can be looked as controversial.

Well like I said all i want to do is helping to solve the sps problem. With all the technology that we have now our progress of reef keeping should be improved not going downward. I believe soon the coral will start spawning in our tank and we will be able to see a single polyp grow to colony in front of our eye.

 

[ycnibrc]

Haha time for pictures. 1.5 years grow from frags

 

[sixty_reefer]

Well like I said all i want to do is helping to solve the sps problem. With all the technology that we have now our progress of reef keeping should be improved not going downward. I believe soon the coral will start spawning in our tank and we will be able to see a single polyp grow to colony in front of our eye.

How cool would that be? I believe there is 3 good proven methods to grow sps. Zeo, triton and DSR it would be wise for people to test this tanks and compare the bacteria present in the reefs using the new testing facility. This could give us more accurate information on the bacteria that aids sps tanks and maybe a starting point.

 

[SeaDweller]

Haha time for pictures. 1.5 years grow from frags

nice! but also, we have to consider these facts: you know what you're doing too, you used to run MH or still do, and you FEED A TON, all which lends to your success. But yes, having bacteria helps, I agree.

 

[ycnibrc]

nice! but also, we have to consider these facts: you know what you're doing too, you used to run MH or still do, and you FEED A TON, all which lends to your success. But yes, having bacteria helps, I agree.

Oh man u spill my secret

 

[SeaDweller]

Oh man u spill my secret

hey... I think your SiB mille looks better in my tank than yours!!!

j/k I have to show you a new pic. It's nuts