Why do I have to submerge my emergency drain in Herbie but not in Bean Animal?

[BigJohnny]

I am plumbing my first herbie, and I have read several places that I need to have both drain outlets submerged. Do I have to have my emergency drain's outlet submerged? I am assuming this helps with the siphon (or is this the only way for it to go full siphon?), or maybe it is just to reduce noise? The reason I ask is that I have seen several people running bean animal and their emergency drains are run to a different area of the sump where it will create a lot of noise if in use. Are they able to do that because they already have a back-up drain and don't need the third to go full siphon?

I'd like my emergency to drop water from above the sump to make noise if activated, but not at the risk of reducing the speed/chance/ability of it to go full siphon in an emergency.

Thanks!

 

[fragit]

I believe that with a herbie the emergency drain doubles as the trickle drain(partial siphon). So there is always a little bit of water running through it, but not enough to create a siphon. In a bean animal you have 3 drains, one full siphon, one partial siphon(trickle) and one emergency that runs dry (unless the water level in the over flow reaches it). Here is a link with good information about all things plumbing and sumps.
http://gmacreef.com/

 

[BigJohnny]

I believe that with a herbie the emergency drain doubles as the trickle drain(partial siphon). So there is always a little bit of water running through it, but not enough to create a siphon. In a bean animal you have 3 drains, one full siphon, one partial siphon(trickle) and one emergency that runs dry (unless the water level in the over flow reaches it). Here is a link with good information about all things plumbing and sumps.
http://gmacreef.com/

Thanks for your post. The actual recommend way to run an herbie is without a trickle, as a full dry emergency drain. A lot of people opt to run a trickle because it doesn't require as much adjustment and are not as concerned about the risk associated with a wet emergency drain. I actually have read GMAC reef before and he recommends both drain outlets submerged on a herbie. He says the emergency is supposed to be able to go full siphon if necessary as well, but only says that the depth should be <1" to make it easier for it to purge air and go full siphon.

In a traditional herbie, the emergency drain would also be dry like the bean animal emergency. That is why I am wondering if the reason that the Bean Animal emergency doesn't have to have it's outlet submerged is because it doesn't need to be able to go full siphon since there is already a trickle drain. This of course assumes that a submerged drain outlet is required for a drain to go full siphon, which is what I am trying to find out lol

 

[fragit]

Oh, I see what you were asking now. I thought you were talking about in the over flow itself. Your actually talking about in the sump. Yes that is the recommended way to run a Herbie. And I agree in my experience most don't do it that way for the very reason you stated. In addition to not needing as much water to start the siphon. If there is any variation with the full siphon it will compensate making the water level in the overflow more stable. So yes all of what you said is correct. And yes any of your drain pipes that are going to have any water running through them regularly need to be about 1" or less below the surface of the water in the sump or it will not purge the air. The emergency drains on bean animals are usually left well above the water line so that they make plenty of noise when they are "in use" like an alarm that something is not functioning properly. I just recently tried to increase the flow in my stand alone refugium. When I initially plumbed it into my sump I had the drains from it's overflow well under the water line in the sump probably 5". Well it ran great until I did a water change and fired the system back up. Thank god I staying in the basement fish room because it did not siphon, not even a little and the tank started to overflow. I cut those drain pipes to be the appropriate length, now it works like a charm.

 

[BigJohnny]

Oh, I see what you were asking now. I thought you were talking about in the over flow itself. Your actually talking about in the sump. Yes that is the recommended way to run a Herbie. And I agree in my experience most don't do it that way for the very reason you stated. In addition to not needing as much water to start the siphon. If there is any variation with the full siphon it will compensate making the water level in the overflow more stable. So yes all of what you said is correct. And yes any of your drain pipes that are going to have any water running through them regularly need to be about 1" or less below the surface of the water in the sump or it will not purge the air. The emergency drains on bean animals are usually left well above the water line so that they make plenty of noise when they are "in use" like an alarm that something is not functioning properly. I just recently tried to increase the flow in my stand alone refugium. When I initially plumbed it into my sump I had the drains from it's overflow well under the water line in the sump probably 5". Well it ran great until I did a water change and fired the system back up. Thank god I staying in the basement fish room because it did not siphon, not even a little and the tank started to overflow. I cut those drain pipes to be the appropriate length, now it works like a charm.

Wow, I am an idiot. I forgot to say "drain outlets" in the title.

So, the emergency drain outlet on a bean animal system can be above the water because it wouldn't need to go full siphon in an emergency, but the emergency drain outlet on a herbie system needs to be submerged so that it can easily purge air and go full siphon if necessary. That is what I thought, but was hoping I was wrong and could still use the sound alarm idea.

 

[fragit]

Wow, I am an idiot. I forgot to say "drain outlets" in the title.

So, the emergency drain outlet on a bean animal system can be above the water because it wouldn't need to go full siphon in an emergency, but the emergency drain outlet on a herbie system needs to be submerged so that it can easily purge air and go full siphon if necessary. That is what I thought, but was hoping I was wrong and could still use the sound alarm idea.

I'm sure you could do what your suggesting. And it would be fine. In my last tank I had a coast 2 coast overflow. I used a modified Herbie, I never had any problems. See the nice thing about bean animal is that you essentially have two back up drains. That's why it is IMO a better system. If the full siphon malfunctions then the partial can take over, if that fails you have the wide open emergency drain.

 

[Rick.45cal]

In a BeanAnimal, there's the full siphon, then a secondary drain that has an air vent, that water trickles down, and an emergency drain that is above the other two. The reason the emergency siphon is above the other two, is in a bean animal system should the main siphon become blocked the secondary drain WILL NOT have the capacity to accept the full flow of the main siphon until the overflow fills up and blocks the air line, causing the secondary "trickle drain" to turn into a full siphon, then as the capacity exceeds it's abilities then the emergency drain starts taking the extra water, causing noise, letting the aquarist know that something is wrong.

 

[BigJohnny]

In a BeanAnimal, there's the full siphon, then a secondary drain that has an air vent, that water trickles down, and an emergency drain that is above the other two. The reason the emergency siphon is above the other two, is in a bean animal system should the main siphon become blocked the secondary drain WILL NOT have the capacity to accept the full flow of the main siphon until the overflow fills up and blocks the air line, causing the secondary "trickle drain" to turn into a full siphon, then as the capacity exceeds it's abilities then the emergency drain starts taking the extra water, causing noise, letting the aquarist know that something is wrong.

Unfortunately I was actually asking about drain outlets not what's going on in the overflow, I forgot to put the word "outlet" in the title. Having said that, great explanation lol.

 

[ReeferBob]

Wow, I am an idiot. I forgot to say "drain outlets" in the title.

So, the emergency drain outlet on a bean animal system can be above the water because it wouldn't need to go full siphon in an emergency, but the emergency drain outlet on a herbie system needs to be submerged so that it can easily purge air and go full siphon if necessary. That is what I thought, but was hoping I was wrong and could still use the sound alarm idea.

It is easier to go full siphon if the drain is out of the water. Water creates back-pressure. There isn't any reason other than noise to have your drain under or above the water.

 

[BigJohnny]

It is easier to go full siphon if the drain is out of the water. Water creates back-pressure. There isn't any reason other than noise to have your drain under or above the water.

Hm I understand the back pressure idea but what about purging air? the other guy was saying it's easier to purge air on a submerged drain outlet (less than one inch)

 

[ReeferBob]

Hm I understand the back pressure idea but what about purging air? the other guy was saying it's easier to purge air on a submerged drain outlet (less than one inch)

I don't think this is true but I should be able to test this with my setup.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

Any drain is under the water in the sump only for noise and only about one inch so it will still start a siphon easy. They will flow just fine out of the water.

 

[ShellSea]

I run a herbie and I keep my emergency pipe above and out of the water so I can hear when it kicks in. Tells me my primary drain is clogged.

 

[BigJohnny]

I don't think this is true but I should be able to test this with my setup.

Cool thanks, let me know how it goes if you do!

 

[BigJohnny]

Any drain is under the water in the sump only for noise and only about one inch so it will still start a siphon easy. They will flow just fine out of the water.

OK cool, thanks!

 

[BigJohnny]

I run a herbie and I keep my emergency pipe above and out of the water so I can hear when it kicks in. Tells me my primary drain is clogged.

Great, that's exactly why I wanted to do it that way. Do you run a completely dry emergency? I'm curious if running a trickle emergency with the drain outlet out of the water would be annoying to listen to. I haven't decided if I'm going to run it completely dry or with a trickle yet.

Conceptually I prefer the idea of it being completely dry but the fact that running a trickle reduces the need to adjust it more frequently is definitely appealing. How often do you have to adjust yours?

 

[ReeferBob]

Great, that's exactly why I wanted to do it that way. Do you run a completely dry emergency? I'm curious if running a trickle emergency with the drain outlet out of the water would be annoying to listen to. I haven't decided if I'm going to run it completely dry or with a trickle yet.

Conceptually I prefer the idea of it being completely dry but the fact that running a trickle reduces the need to adjust it more frequently is definitely appealing. How often do you have to adjust yours?

You won't have a choice. There is just about a 0% chance you will be able to get it tuned without some water running in the trickle channel.

 

[fragit]

I don't have any experience with a traditional Herbie. My intention was not to lead you in the wrong direction. I agree that the only reason to submerge the emergency is to cut down on noise.

 

[ShellSea]

It is a rare case indeed if I get emergency drain to run completely dry although that is my intent. The slight trickle that is more often than not is not load and when it picks up I can distinguish it right away. Skimmer fluctuations, ato, dosing schedules all can cause slight variations that may impact emergency drain but that's what it is there for. Putting in a new sump tomorrow and expect I will be tweeking quite a bit for a couple days. Lol.

 

[BigJohnny]

I don't have any experience with a traditional Herbie. My intention was not to lead you in the wrong direction. I agree that the only reason to submerge the emergency is to cut down on noise.

Ofcourse you weren't, thanks bud