Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[that Reef Guy]

I absolutely will start doing that! Thanks! [emoji16]

Your Welcome

 

[that Reef Guy]

Because on a polyp/head basis they are not more expensive. I just had a beautiful zoanthid I purchased from reef2reef delivered today. I paid $65 for 50+ heads a little more than $1.00 per polyp. I also received 6 zoa frags of about 10 heads each that I paid $25 each for. I liked them and I am going to see if they will grow together into a colony. An experiment. But purely from a cost basis, the bigger piece is a better deal. I have a really nice sized acan I purchased from Austin Aqua Farms a couple of years ago. Last week when my rock stack collapsed part of it got covered by sand and died. But just a small part maybe 2%. If it been a frag it all would have died. I would rather go to LiveAquaria and pay $129 for a 4-6 inch favite than $30-$60 for a 1 inch frag. But that's me. You are welcome to do whatever you want.

Granted I am old and not as smart as I used to be. But when the conventional wisdom is, "the hobby can only get frags because of scarcity," and at the same time there are over 24,000 corals listed on Ebay, a vendor in this thread claimed he frags 1,000s of corals every month and there are literally 100,000s of thousands of corals available on the internet, I have to question the conventional wisdom. Walk into Ferrari Beverly Hills and you will pay the sticker price. Why? BECAUSE IT IS A FERRARI!! There aren't 100,000s out there. But google acroporas for sale and you'll find 1,000 or more for sale at any one time. THEY ARE NOT SCARCE! Yet somehow the online retailers have successfully convinced the hobby that they are scarce and valuable. Trust me on this, at some point someone is going to come along and Amazon the online coral trade. Completely disrupt it. The bubble WILL burst and prices will come down. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't someone right now farming corals on a 5-10 year plan to blow up the market. If I was younger and more talented I would take a shot at it myself.

1.00 a Polyp great.

But what about a Hardcore Collector like myself.

I have over 130 Different Types of Zoanthids.

So what you bought I either have or don't want.

If I said I am only buying cheap frags or colonies I would never be able to buy another Coral since I have all the cheap ones.

So I am willing to pay more.

I like Most people started buying cheaper corals but once you get them all you start buying more expensive ones.

Some Corals are common and/or uglier so they cost less.
Some Corals are Rarer and/or nicer looking so people will pay more.

It is supply and demand like others have stated.

You don't seem to realize that.

There may be 1,000 of Acros but there are only so Many Walt Disneys. They are rarer and more colorful so people will pay more.

With Your Logic Cars are Common so they all should cost the same.

Why are you not Arguing why the Ferrari is so much more than the Ford?

It is because it is more desireable.

Same with Coral. Some are much more desireable than others.

And it looks like you enjoy common corals (Which is fine). So why complain about all the named rare corals (You don't want them anyways so this doesn't affect you).

 

[that Reef Guy]

The single head polyps he sells come off the same exact mother colony as the blasto I purchased. They are identical. Granted, mine went into a 180gl tank and some of the singles probably went into nanos, but still...

If the same seller was selling the same coral for that price he needs to take a Math Class.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I'm not complaining. I'm genuinely curious as to what motivates people to behave in certain ways. I agree. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BUYING FRAGS. I have purchased frags in the past and I'm sure I will in the future. I am installing a 30gl nano reef on Tuesday, (if it is delivered as promised), and I will probably stock it with frags. It is too small to put in large pieces from my 180gl tank. And you write: "The Rest of Us will Buy Frags (Nothing wrong with that)." as though I am the only person looking for larger pieces.

You write: "And if you DON'T CARE why did you make this post?" I don't care what you spend your money on, but I am curious as to what motivates peoples behaviors.

Mostly Price and Some People like the Finer things in Life.

Some People Drink Wine that Costs $1,000 a Bottle and Some People Drink Wine out of a Box.

Like anything in Life Nicer Stuff is More Desireable and More Expensive.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Why bless your heart. You're funny. I like you. Misguided perhaps, but genuinely sincere.
You post: "I am not saying you don't know because I do not know you. I am just saying." LOL. I'm not saying, fill in the name, is a crook because I don't know him. I am just saying.

Why bless your little anonymous heart. Do you really and truly believe that your opinion is shared by all reefers? I mean really? I'm the only old ignoramus who doesn't see the TRUTH? The thread was NOT aquacultured vs. wild. I'm all in favor of aquaculture. I know that the corals I just bought today were aquacultured. So please get a grip. And if I buy frags and they die because I don't know how to care for them, ALL THE MORE REASON FOR ME NOT TO BUY FRAGS!! Hey pal, I'm 65 years old. I could drop dead at any time. I have neither the time or the patience to watch an itty bitty frag grow into a garden. Not in this tank. But, as I have stated ad nauseum, (try to read the posts, not just react), I am setting up a 30gl nano for my office and I intend to stock it in part with frags. I set up a tank for my granddaughter and I have encouraged her to buy frags for a variety of reasons.

It is not my opinion.

It is common sense.

Talk to anybody that knows anything about Coral and they will back me up.

Your the one that made the crazy claim that Frags have a Higher Death Rate than Colonies. (P.S. where is your Scientific Backing since you asked me)?

I am merely showing you how that claim can proven wrong.

If you don't have the time or the patience then why are you posting all this and fighting with us?

 

[that Reef Guy]

My experience purchasing large colonies of maricultured Acro's is that they are not nearly as hardy as frags generally are. I think its because all frags are basically aquacultured at this point. Nobody is collecting frags from the ocean, they come from reef keepers colonies that have managed to survive, producing frags that have the same characteristics. Its sort of a microevolutionary mechanism. Frags can only come from coloinies that are hardy enough to survive captivity. Price is a huge factor as well, as most colonies are 150+ regardless of coral type.

Wild Acro Colony - 99 Percent Chance of Dying
Frag of Green Slimer Acro Tank Raised - 99 Percent Chance of Living (Like Seriously you would have to want this Coral to Die to have it Die - It is Bulletproof)

Yeah, Please tell me Again How Colonies do Better than Frags?

That is the Perfect Example here of why you are Wrong.

 

[Ike]

There has been a large "greed" component in this hobby for as long as I've been a part of it. In fact it was far worse in the early days of what we consider reefing when people like A. Thiel were price gouging for supplements and glorified advertisements. There are people that sell corals that are driven by greed and try to take advantage of the inexperienced. They generally don't have staying power beyond some side hustle on ebay.

However, there are several vendors and coral frag sellers that offer good products and service at reasonable/fair prices. Some are even great at it and have dedicated their lives to growing some very pretty captive corals and are an asset to the hobby and are good, reputable businessmen. They're making money, hopefully enough to retire and live well on! I feel like the OP believes there is something wrong with that. I don't... The above scenario isn't much different from any other hobby or collectible other than this is one of them that people generally DO NOT get rich doing. Hell, it's rare for people to even make a good living in the aquarium industry as a whole.

Some random points and observations from this thread and why I buy frags...

1.) I won't buy colonies anymore because I know how volatile and adapted corals are to the environment they were grown in. This is especially true with acropora: a captive grown frag of acropora is many times hardier than a wild colony in my experience.

2.) I like to grow my reef. I look at frags like seedlings or seeds and plan just like a gardener does regarding placement, growth rates and growth forms. Buying colonies is for those not as dedicated, or mostly for those that don't want to wait for any number of perfectly valid reasons.

3.) We need to pay a fair amount for corals to encourage captive propagation. We also need to get to a point of more transparency in the industry regarding supply chains and and growing techniques.

4.) Not all acropora is artificially inflated by unscrupulous corals sellers. There are several corals that have held their price well because demand outpaces supply.

5.) There's too much smoke and mirrors and on the supply and vendor side as well. We've demanded to know more about many aspects of our lives (coffee, food, tea, clothing, etc.). As hobbyists we should ask more about who we're buying our corals from. We have the powder to demand more from the businesses we send money to. Transparency will become more commmonplace in this hobby. We're just a little behind...

 

[that Reef Guy]

There has been a large "greed" component in this hobby for as long as I've been a part of it. In fact it was far worse in the early days of what we consider reefing when people like A. Thiel were price gouging for supplements and glorified advertisements. There are people that sell corals that are driven by greed and try to take advantage of the inexperienced. They generally don't have staying power beyond some side hustle on ebay.

However, there are several vendors and coral frag sellers that offer good products and service at reasonable/fair prices. Some are even great at it and have dedicated their lives to growing some very pretty captive corals and are an asset to the hobby and are good, reputable businessmen. They're making money, hopefully enough to retire and live well on! I feel like the OP believes there is something wrong with that. I don't... The above scenario isn't much different from any other hobby or collectible other than this is one of them that people generally DO NOT get rich doing. Hell, it's rare for people to even make a good living in the aquarium industry as a whole.

Some random points and observations from this thread and why I buy frags...

1.) I won't buy colonies anymore because I know how volatile and adapted corals are to the environment they were grown in. This is especially true with acropora: a captive grown frag of acropora is many times hardier than a wild colony in my experience.

2.) I like to grow my reef. I look at frags like seedlings or seeds and plan just like a gardener does regarding placement, growth rates and growth forms. Buying colonies is for those not as dedicated, or mostly for those that don't want to wait for any number of perfectly valid reasons.

3.) We need to pay a fair amount for corals to encourage captive propagation. We also need to get to a point of more transparency in the industry regarding supply chains and and growing techniques.

4.) Not all acropora is artificially inflated by unscrupulous corals sellers. There are several corals that have held their price well because demand outpaces supply.

5.) There's too much smoke and mirrors and on the supply and vendor side as well. We've demanded to know more about many aspects of our lives (coffee, food, tea, clothing, etc.). As hobbyists we should ask more about who we're buying our corals from. We have the powder to demand more from the businesses we send money to. Transparency will become more commmonplace in this hobby. We're just a little behind...

1. Don't Lie !!!! The OP Says Colonies are easier to keep than Frags (And he knows because he has been doing this for 40 Years) LOL.

2. Excellent Point - People could buy expensive fully grown trees or inexpensive seeds (I bet the Farming People Never make this Complaint) Most buy seeds and don't care i'm sure.

3. Agree (Aquaculture is Great Both for the Hobby and the Ocean).

4. Agree. Quit Being Lazy and Shop Around. I have seen a Coral for $100 and that same Coral for $10 but if all you do is look at web sites you will never find these deals.

5. I am curious - What is it that you would like to know from the supply side?

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

Oh yes, they were available.

I know they were available.

In 2000 there just were not a lot of LfS owners that could keep them.

And the products and knowledge(that we had 10 years later) to keep them in 2000 just wasn’t there, at that level.

Nor was the importing infrastructure in place for large scale collecting, shipping, holding, and husbandry for acro colonies in 90’s and early 2000’s.

If the poster was one of the 1% of mini reefers at the time. And the LFS was in the 1% at the time. Sure, my assessment is off.

 

[stacksoner]

We make decisions for the tanks we want to have, instead of for the tanks we actually have.

Cognitive dissonance describes the discrepancy between actual reality and our conscious beliefs. It's the root of depression and anxiety.

I'm personally done with the dinky frags. You're absolutely right about their survival and I think it makes us all perpetually look like we just started out in the hobby

 

[Ike]

1. Don't Lie !!!! The OP Says Colonies are easier to keep than Frags (And he knows because he has been doing this for 40 Years) LOL.

2. Excellent Point - People could buy expensive fully grown trees or inexpensive seeds (I bet the Farming People Never make this Complaint) Most buy seeds and don't care i'm sure.

3. Agree (Aquaculture is Great Both for the Hobby and the Ocean).

4. Agree. Quit Being Lazy and Shop Around. I have seen a Coral for $100 and that same Coral for $10 but if all you do is look at web sites you will never find these deals.

5. I am curious - What is it that you would like to know from the supply side?

It probably wouldn't look a whole lot different from a fair trade coffee or tea system, but with more focus on sustainability and less focus on the corrupt marketing aspect that leads to the collectors/farmers getting very little benefit. Things that would be nice... We know coral collectors are treated well and paid a fair wage. The holding facilities are set-up to give the corals and animals collected the best possible chance to survive. A system in general that would encourage sustainability and great reverence for the resources we're using. I don't know for certain, but I suspect there are still a lot of humanitarian issues within the collection side of things, but I don't hear anyone talking about them.

The big problem with all of that... People are often not conservation minded, and many of them won't want to pay more for a product because it's better for the community around where it comes from and better for the environment.

 

[OrionN]

When I started in this hobby 15+ years ago I would go to my LFS and purchase nice sized colonies/corals at reasonable prices.

About 2 weeks ago I gave my Granddaughter about half the corals in my 180gl to stock the 50gl tank I had given her. So I went out looking for new pieces to stock my tank. 95% of everything is little bitty frags on plugs at inflated prices. I am of the opinion and experience that buying frags, for the most part, is a sucker's game. The attrition rate is horrible. Yet most hobbyists continue to purchase frags because that is what is available. But why is that the only game in town? If we, as buyers, stopped buying overpriced frags the retailers would be forced to reduce the price or increase the size. Here is an example: I went to my LFS and asked if he could get me a nice Blasto colony, (BTW 4 heads on a plug IS NOT a colony), and he took me over to his display tank and told me I could buy one of the 2 colonies he had. About 20 heads for $225. He then took me to his frag tank and showed me the same heads at $60 each and he has a constant turnover of them. I asked him why people would pay $60 a head and he told me that is what hobbyists have become conditioned to buying.

He has a handful of old-time customers like me who he tries to find bigger pieces for, but most people prefer to buy frags. There is another well known LFS near me who has basically stopped selling corals because he told me selling frags is just ripping his customers off and he doesn't need the money that bad.

So someone explain to me? What is the fascination with buying frags?

The days of harvesting wild colonies in big chunk are long gone, and they are not coming back. These days, you can either get Mariculture frags or Tank-raise frags. There are limited Wild-collected frags that seem to be highly regulated.
Of course with Wild-collected or Maricuture, the frags can be large. For Tank-raise, due to obvious reason, the frags got to be small for the person who raise them to make some money or even break even. I know because I have done this in the past.
I strongly disagree that the attrition rate of Tank-raise frags are high. From a good source, these are disease free and the survival rate is at or near 100%. That is if you know what you are doing. Mariculture, and Wild-collect frags is another mater. Mortality there tend to be high, and color change can be drastic. You can buy one color and after a few months, the coral you have is completely different, in term of looks and color.

I would completely avoid chop shop. LFS that import wild collect frags and chop them up and sell them as if these are tank raise frags. From your post, I think you are talking about buying these chop shop frags.
BTW, I have been keeping marine tanks since 1980, the early days. whild I am not as old as your are, it is likely that I have keep reef tank longer than you are.

 

[Ulee]

.Fragging stimulates faster growth..for most corals.
.New and sought after corals only available in tiny fragments.

Not much coming Maricultured, Tonga, Indonesia have stopped import all together.

Supply and demand.

Also, reefkeeping has spiked in last two years , and without mass imports, guess what's gonna happen?

I have this conversation often, we hobbyist have enough corals to supply ourselves without sourcing from the sea. But the demand is high, heck, I got someone PM'ing me now for coral

 

[mfrumkin]

If the same seller was selling the same coral for that price he needs to take a Math Class.

I don't understand your point.

 

[Brian1f1]

I know they were available.

In 2000 there just were not a lot of LfS owners that could keep them.

And the products and knowledge(that we had 10 years later) to keep them in 2000 just wasn’t there, at that level.

Nor was the importing infrastructure in place for large scale collecting, shipping, holding, and husbandry for acro colonies in 90’s and early 2000’s.

If the poster was one of the 1% of mini reefers at the time. And the LFS was in the 1% at the time. Sure, my assessment is off.

There were plenty of retailers and tech in the first half of the 00’s... Even online, I remember Reefer Madness had almost nothing but acro colonies. I had seaswirls, a calcium reactor, halides and PC lights, a chiller by 2001... by 2005 plenty of folks did. Give me a break.

 

[mfrumkin]

.Fragging stimulates faster growth..for most corals.
.New and sought after corals only available in tiny fragments.

Not much coming Maricultured, Tonga, Indonesia have stopped import all together.

Supply and demand.

Also, reefkeeping has spiked in last two years , and without mass imports, guess what's gonna happen?

I have this conversation often, we hobbyist have enough corals to supply ourselves without sourcing from the sea. But the demand is high, heck, I got someone PM'ing me now for coral

I totally agree with much of what you are posting. I do question the supply and demand issue. We have been told that there s a shortage, and perhaps there is with upper end high priced designer corals, Walt Disney or whatever. But is this an artificial supply issue? Is a Walt Disney acro that is being sold for $X that much harder to grow than an acro for $40-$50? I don't know. If it is, then perhaps the price is justified. But if it a situation where you are paying Ferrari prices for a Ford because the vendors control the market, then people should rethink things. The reef guy says he buys upper-end corals and I don't doubt him. But I am guessing he is an outlier. I am guessing, (and it is only that, a guess), that the average collector/hobbyist probably DOES NOT buy upper-end corals.

This is NOT a transparent industry. As far as I can tell there are no publicly traded coral vendors that have to file disclosures. So who knows what the economics are? We know what we are told by vendors, but is that accurate? Do we even know that vendors DON'T collude to control prices and inventory?

Basic retail economics: Let's assume a retail vendor frags 3,000 pieces a month that equals 12,000 pieces a quarter. They have to turn their inventory 4 times a year. At an average sales price of let's say $40 that is $480,000 a quarter, close to $2,000,000 a year. Without knowing the COGS it is impossible to know the true P&L. I REALLY don't believe that there is a real supply and demand issue. The vendors control the supply. By doing so they can also control demand. The average hobbyist goes along with it because we don't know any better because there is no transparency. It is a vicious cycle.

 

[mfrumkin]

We make decisions for the tanks we want to have, instead of for the tanks we actually have.

Cognitive dissonance describes the discrepancy between actual reality and our conscious beliefs. It's the root of depression and anxiety.

I'm personally done with the dinky frags. You're absolutely right about their survival and I think it makes us all perpetually look like we just started out in the hobby

These are my thoughts exactly.

I truly believe that at some point someone will Amazon this industry and we will see the bubble burst. If there is enough profit in it, it will be inevitable.

 

[mfrumkin]

1.00 a Polyp great.

But what about a Hardcore Collector like myself.

I have over 130 Different Types of Zoanthids.

So what you bought I either have or don't want.

If I said I am only buying cheap frags or colonies I would never be able to buy another Coral since I have all the cheap ones.

So I am willing to pay more.

I like Most people started buying cheaper corals but once you get them all you start buying more expensive ones.

Some Corals are common and/or uglier so they cost less.
Some Corals are Rarer and/or nicer looking so people will pay more.

It is supply and demand like others have stated.

You don't seem to realize that.

There may be 1,000 of Acros but there are only so Many Walt Disneys. They are rarer and more colorful so people will pay more.

With Your Logic Cars are Common so they all should cost the same.

Why are you not Arguing why the Ferrari is so much more than the Ford?

It is because it is more desireable.

Same with Coral. Some are much more desireable than others.

And it looks like you enjoy common corals (Which is fine). So why complain about all the named rare corals (You don't want them anyways so this doesn't affect you).

"But what about a Hardcore Collector like myself. I have over 130 Different Types of Zoanthids. If I said I am only buying cheap frags or colonies I would never be able to buy another Coral since I have all the cheap ones. So I am willing to pay more."

You are actually making my point for me. YOU are the Ferrari buyer of the reef hobby. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does make you an outlier. I don't know for sure, but I am guessing that the cast majority of hobbyists are not willing to pay what you pay for rare and unique coral.

I would love to see your tank. Do you have pictures?

"With Your Logic Cars are Common so they all should cost the same. Why are you not Arguing why the Ferrari is so much more than the Ford?"

Again, you make my point for me.

"And it looks like you enjoy common corals (Which is fine). So why complain about all the named rare corals (You don't want them anyways so this doesn't affect you)."

I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE PRICE!! I am questioning the concept that you, me, and every other hobbyist has bought into: THE SUPPLY IS LOW AND THE DEMAND IS HIGH. Are you familiar with the diamond trade? If not I would direct you to this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-why-diamonds-are-so-expensive-2015-9

 

[mfrumkin]

It is not my opinion.

It is common sense.

Talk to anybody that knows anything about Coral and they will back me up.

Your the one that made the crazy claim that Frags have a Higher Death Rate than Colonies. (P.S. where is your Scientific Backing since you asked me)?

I am merely showing you how that claim can proven wrong.

If you don't have the time or the patience then why are you posting all this and fighting with us?

A. It is not common sense, it is your opinion based on your limited observations.

B. Really? Everybody backs you up? Even on this thread there are people who don't agree with you.

C. And I stand by that in a large tank. No, I don't have scientific data. There may be some out there, but I haven't found it. So my opinion is based on the same anecdotal evidence as yours.

D. All you have shown is that you disagree. That's fine. You are welcome to disagree. Just try to do it without insulting or belittling others. Before you post, think about whether you would say it in person or even over the phone.

E. Who is us? You are the only one who continues to insist that YOU have the TRUTH and everyone else is wrong. Please, actually read my posts BEFORE responding. I buy frags and I will continue to buy frags. What I will not do is allow the equivalent of Coral OPEC to persuade me that they can tick on my leg and have me believe it is raining.

 

[mfrumkin]

Wild Acro Colony - 99 Percent Chance of Dying
Frag of Green Slimer Acro Tank Raised - 99 Percent Chance of Living (Like Seriously you would have to want this Coral to Die to have it Die - It is Bulletproof)

Yeah, Please tell me Again How Colonies do Better than Frags?

That is the Perfect Example here of why you are Wrong.

I am willing to run an experiment. Send me a list of 6-7 readily available acros that you think are 99% bulletproof and I will buy them. I will put them in my tank and keep you informed of my tank parameters and how they are growing. If after 3mos, 6 mos, and a year at least 80% of them are thriving, I will stand corrected and admit I am wrong.