Why is my return pump "flushing" with the Apex?

[cybrook1421]

Hello! I have a 5-6 month old tank with Apex. I have a sump with a eshopps hang on overflow in a herbie drain set up. My return pump (octo varios4) is occasionally making a toilet flushing sound. The pump pauses for just a moment, sends a surge of water like it was restarted, and then my siphon drains and restarts. I have not been able to identify anything causing this. I track it with my sump high optical sensor and it sends an alarm to my phone when it happens. The time between the high sump sensor triggering the alarm and the alarm going back off is typically less than 60 seconds. The herbie overflow has a main siphon and an emergency drain. There is always a trickle going down the emergency, as many guides say to have.

My apex shows no interruption in wattage or power for the return pump. Sometimes it happens when the ATO has just stopped and sometimes not. I don't remember it happening when the tank was younger. It has for sure been happening since June/July. It can sometimes happen as often as 2-3 times a day, but usually once every two days.

Do you think it might be because my return pump might be dirty? I haven't cleaned it since I started the tank (fish have only been in there for about 2-3 months though). That is really the only thing I could possibly think of.

If you need any apex data, pictures, extra info, etc., please let me know! Thank you in advance!

 

[Fastball16]

Not an expert by any means so that this as the advice of “it worked for me” . My return was pumping faster than the capacity of my overflow. Was having the flushing sound plus lots of air being returned to the tank. I adjusted my return pump to a slower speed and that resolved my issue. Since my ref is upstairs in my office, where my children sleep, my wife was adamant that I solve the noise issue.

 

[homer1475]

Are you using the float valve with the varios? Could it be sucking the water down to far, activating the float, shutting the pump off, then when it drains down(flushing noise) the pump restarts?

Or you could just need a gate valve on the siphon line.

 

[Dburr1014]

Hello! I have a 5-6 month old tank with Apex. I have a sump with a eshopps hang on overflow in a herbie drain set up. My return pump (octo varios4) is occasionally making a toilet flushing sound. The pump pauses for just a moment, sends a surge of water like it was restarted, and then my siphon drains and restarts. I have not been able to identify anything causing this. I track it with my sump high optical sensor and it sends an alarm to my phone when it happens. The time between the high sump sensor triggering the alarm and the alarm going back off is typically less than 60 seconds. The herbie overflow has a main siphon and an emergency drain. There is always a trickle going down the emergency, as many guides say to have.

My apex shows no interruption in wattage or power for the return pump. Sometimes it happens when the ATO has just stopped and sometimes not. I don't remember it happening when the tank was younger. It has for sure been happening since June/July. It can sometimes happen as often as 2-3 times a day, but usually once every two days.

Do you think it might be because my return pump might be dirty? I haven't cleaned it since I started the tank (fish have only been in there for about 2-3 months though). That is really the only thing I could possibly think of.

If you need any apex data, pictures, extra info, etc., please let me know! Thank you in advance!

The coding would help to make sure it's not that.
Do you have a gate valve or ball valve? I guess pics would help also.

 

[cybrook1421]

Not an expert by any means so that this as the advice of “it worked for me” . My return was pumping faster than the capacity of my overflow. Was having the flushing sound plus lots of air being returned to the tank. I adjusted my return pump to a slower speed and that resolved my issue. Since my ref is upstairs in my office, where my children sleep, my wife was adamant that I solve the noise issue.

The level of the sump doesn't seem to decrease constantly for that to be the case. It happens randomly and unfortunately it is unpredictable so I can't just sit in front of my sump for hours. It is something to possible look into. My ato runs every 90 mins for about the same amount of time each time, so I would think the ato would show the level being lower and therefore fill up more. Thanks for the thoughts!

Are you using the float valve with the varios? Could it be sucking the water down to far, activating the float, shutting the pump off, then when it drains down(flushing noise) the pump restarts?

Or you could just need a gate valve on the siphon line.

It is not connected to the float valve and currently only running on 50% speed. I have a gate valve on the Herbie drain and have it dialed in so there is no noise in the siphon and only a trickle through the emergency.

The coding would help to make sure it's not that.
Do you have a gate valve or ball valve? I guess pics would help also.

I have a gate valve on the siphon line (hard pvc). The return is on 50% power and with tubing. They are both dialed in so that the siphon makes no noise and there is a trickle down the emergency.

The only coding I have for the return pump is my feed modes. Otherwise the ato is scheduled to check every 90 mins and fill if needed. But the flushing doesn't always line up with the ato running.

I will try to take pictures and maybe a video, but it is so unpredictable that I would have to video for hours to catch it.

 

[Dburr1014]

The level of the sump doesn't seem to decrease constantly for that to be the case. It happens randomly and unfortunately it is unpredictable so I can't just sit in front of my sump for hours. It is something to possible look into. My ato runs every 90 mins for about the same amount of time each time, so I would think the ato would show the level being lower and therefore fill up more. Thanks for the thoughts!



It is not connected to the float valve and currently only running on 50% speed. I have a gate valve on the Herbie drain and have it dialed in so there is no noise in the siphon and only a trickle through the emergency.




I have a gate valve on the siphon line (hard pvc). The return is on 50% power and with tubing. They are both dialed in so that the siphon makes no noise and there is a trickle down the emergency.

The only coding I have for the return pump is my feed modes. Otherwise the ato is scheduled to check every 90 mins and fill if needed. But the flushing doesn't always line up with the ato running.

I will try to take pictures and maybe a video, but it is so unpredictable that I would have to video for hours to catch it.

Just pictures of the lines is fine. Just to see the plumbing.

 

[cybrook1421]

@Dburr1014

Here are the pictures of the plumbing. Thanks for your help!

 

[DCR]

The flushing sound is almost certainly cavitation, most likely from air being pulled into the intake or a dirty intake screen. It could simply be a low level in the sump, or it could be from the pump being sped up by the controller which would pull more water and possibly air into the pump. From your pictures, the normal level does not look to be excessively low to me and your intake screen appears to be clean but you may want to have a closer look.

 

[Dburr1014]

The first thing I see and can't see, lol, is the main drain line. The second picture on the top of the box it looks like that is your emergency Drain. How far below is your main drain? Also, can you raise up your Emergency Drain so the spillover isn't as much? I'm wondering if you are occasionally getting sucking noise because the distance between the emergency and the main drains Is Not Great enough.

The second thing I noticed, which may or may not be a big deal, is the gate valve. I would have put it closer toward the sump. I'm wondering if you're getting any air in that line. You may not be but normally I see them closer to where the pipe dumps out into the sump.

 

[cybrook1421]

The flushing sound is almost certainly cavitation, most likely from air being pulled into the intake or a dirty intake screen. It could simply be a low level in the sump, or it could be from the pump being sped up by the controller which would pull more water and possibly air into the pump. From your pictures, the normal level does not look to be excessively low to me and your intake screen appears to be clean but you may want to have a closer look.

Hmmm, cavitation certainly seems like it could be it because it happens so fast. Just a quick whoosh of air and then the return pump is back to normal. The controller is set on level 3/5 but is a DC pump. Would it change the speed of the pump like that? The water does not seem to be making any movement like it is creating a vortex or otherwise.

Here is a pic of the front of the sump so you can see the water level. The intake "protector" is clear, but I may just need to pull it out and clean beyond that just to be sure.

Thank you for the thoughts and ideas!

The first thing I see and can't see, lol, is the main drain line. The second picture on the top of the box it looks like that is your emergency Drain. How far below is your main drain? Also, can you raise up your Emergency Drain so the spillover isn't as much? I'm wondering if you are occasionally getting sucking noise because the distance between the emergency and the main drains Is Not Great enough.

The second thing I noticed, which may or may not be a big deal, is the gate valve. I would have put it closer toward the sump. I'm wondering if you're getting any air in that line. You may not be but normally I see them closer to where the pipe dumps out into the sump.

Sorry, it is hard to see because of the way it is positioned behind the tank. I took a few more pictures below. The main drain is the black intake screen at the front and the emergency is the PVC. The opening to the main drain sits about level with the bulkhead and the top of the emergency drain is 6 inches above. The top of the emergency drain is also only about an inch below the level of the overflow part inside the tank.

When I originally set up this overflow box, I tried for the longest time to get it to balance out with the emergency drain a little bit higher/longer. The return chamber in the sump would either drain too fast or fill up slowly no matter what power level I had the return pump and even if I got the drain quietly siphoning. Eventually I had to keep cutting off little bits and this is what I am left with.

I followed the instructions from here https://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/ and also other reef2reef posts and websites on how to put the drain lines together. The website I linked has a picture gate valve closest to the sump and says that it really only affects how quickly the full siphon is started and has minimal difference. And realistically I could only move it down about 3 inches closer to the sump. I don't hear or feel any air bubbles in the main line. I just hear a very slight trickle noise from the emergency (which I am trying to adjust as well with a bevel in the emergency pipe).

However, the noise doesn't come from the drain, it comes from the return pump very quickly stopping and restarting or somehow pulling in air. It sounds just like it does when I intentionally turn off the pump, just a lot quicker.

Thank you for your help!

 

[Dburr1014]

Cavitation happens when the pump isn't getting enough feed. The water feeding the pump is restricted and the pump gets in a vacuum state. Your pump is sitting in water, no restrictions, and you said it's not sucking in air. Unless there is something in the intake line.
I would take it apart and soak it in citric acid. Make sure there are no blockages.

 

[cybrook1421]

Cavitation happens when the pump isn't getting enough feed. The water feeding the pump is restricted and the pump gets in a vacuum state. Your pump is sitting in water, no restrictions, and you said it's not sucking in air. Unless there is something in the intake line.
I would take it apart and soak it in citric acid. Make sure there are no blockages.

Ok. Thank you. I will clean it out this weekend. Maybe since it didn't do this for the first few months it was running, all it takes is a good cleaning.