Worried about Palytoxins

[rja]

Hey all,
Watching a cool video on Joe Yaiullo’s 20,000 gallon reef rebuild. He took a tangent on palytoxins. How he had palys taking over the reef, he had numerous encounters with palytoxin, he said it was killing his fish and corals. You hear so much about palytoxins and there’s really seemingly no definitive answers out there. You get people saying they can wipe out a whole family then there’s most folks that say “don’t eat em and you should be okay”. Now upon my 20 mins of research into palytoxins themselves, I see one notable thing. Apparently there are certain Palythoa that are far more toxic than other Palythoa and Zoanthids? If this is true what is the difference? How can I tell that the three species of Palythoa I have aren’t the kind that allegedly send toxin into the water column? I would like to discuss this with you guys. I’ve included a photo of my three species. One is identified as Toxic Nuclear Green Palythoas. The other two, I can’t tell.

Regardless, I am removing the second photo for the soul reason that these guys are totally invasive and pretty ugly compared to the other zoas you see…

 

[blaxsun]

Two friends I know both got exposed to palytoxins from handling grandis palythoas, so they now give those variants a wide berth. The bright neon green one in the top image isn't a grandis palythoa, but probably has palytoxins - so handle that one with gloves.

That being said, I've been sticking my hands in my tank moving stuff around for 2 years and I've never had an issue (that or I'm immune, which I somehow doubt). As long as you're not fragging them in the tank or generally uprooting them you should be fine. It's not different than taking care around rabbitfish or long spine urchins. If you are going to frag, removing said zoas/palys to a separate container along with hand (arm), eye and mask protection are recommended.

I should also add that to the best of my knowledge I've never lost any fish to my zoas/palys, either - and they're interacting with them far more than I am.

Suspect A: Nuclear Green Palythoa Grandis.

 

[rja]

Two friends I know both got exposed to palytoxins from handling grandis palythoas, so they now give those variants a wide berth. The bright neon green one in the top image isn't a grandis palythoa, but probably has palytoxins - so handle that one with gloves.

That being said, I've been sticking my hands in my tank moving stuff around for 2 years and I've never had an issue (that or I'm immune, which I somehow doubt). As long as you're not fragging them in the tank or generally uprooting them you should be fine. It's not different than taking care around rabbitfish or long spine urchins. If you are going to frag, removing said zoas/palys to a separate container along with hand (arm), eye and mask protection are recommended.

I should also add that to the best of my knowledge I've never lost any fish to my zoas/palys, either - and they're interacting with them far more than I am.

Suspect A: Nuclear Green Palythoa Grandis.

This is pretty much the story I hear. In his video, Mr. Yaiullo also states that there were many things like fittings rusting in the tank along with cement erosion into rebar. So I really think the issues weren’t natural things and definitely not Palytoxins— I think we would have many more cases of tanks being nuked by palys. I will handle with care. Those bright green ones are so cool, almost worth it lol.

 

[SilvermistInc]

Don't worry about palytoxin. Just don't damage the polyp while you've got open wounds, and you'll be fine.

 

[rja]

Don't worry about palytoxin. Just don't damage the polyp while you've got open wounds, and you'll be fine.

I think it will be safe practice for me to just handle the inside of my tank with nitrile gloves. I don’t want my hand oils in the tank and I definitely don’t think anything from corals or marine fish is really safe to touch as a rule of thumb, I suppose.

 

[SilvermistInc]

I think it will be safe practice for me to just handle the inside of my tank with nitrile gloves. I don’t want my hand oils in the tank and I definitely don’t think anything from corals or marine fish is really safe to touch as a rule of thumb, I suppose.

Tons of corals are perfectly safe to touch. The only thing I actively avoid touching is my mini maxi nems. Those hurt when they sting.

 

[92Miata]

Palytoxin takes a lot of blame for things.


The vast majority of reef tank injuries are mycobacterium marinum, or vibrio. The majority of palytoxin injury photos on reef sites are actually one of those two.

Palytoxin poisoning typically presents as respiratory issues.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

My two cents on palytoxin after doing some research on it myself a while ago:

My understanding of palytoxin is this: some zoanthids and some palythoas have it, some don’t. Of those that do, some have it in meaningful quantities, some don’t. Even within the same species/color morph, there might be different levels of the toxin. Again, some might have it in meaningful quantities, some might not. There is some speculation that we might be able to breed toxin free palythoas and zoanthids like we’ve bred toxin free pufferfish, but I don’t know if this is accurate or not. There is also some speculation that, generally, the more colorful the zoanthid/palythoa, the less toxic or less likely to be toxic it is - there might be some truth to that, there moght not be.

What I know is this: you should probably treat all palythoas and zoanthids as if they do contain lethal levels of the toxin, and you should be aware of the signs of palytoxin poisoning in case you experience it, but most likely it won’t be an issue for you or your corals.

Don’t drop rocks on paly colonies, don’t frag zoas barehanded then rub your eyes, don’t bake live rock with zoas or palys on them (yes, these are all stories I’ve seen on here), and don’t scrub the rocks with colonies on them spotless with a toothbrush in a poorly ventilated area and no personal protective equipment.

As long as you don’t do anything blatantly unsafe or that would obviously upset the zoanthids or palythoas, you and your corals will likely all be fine. (And again, there’s a decent chance that even if you do something unwise or something that aggravates them, they might just not be toxic enough to do anything either way.)

So, be smart, be safe, and enjoy your zoas and palys.

Yeah, treat all palys/zoas as though they have larges amounts of palytoxin, but as long as you don’t have a sensitivity to it or open wounds on your hands, you should be fine just reaching in and washing your hands after. (In case you do have a sensitivity to it or to something else in your tank, though, I recommend wearing personal protective equipment when dealing with the tank, and especially when dealing with things that may be highly toxic).

Generally you have to do something really unwise that aerosolizes the toxin for it be dangerous (like boiling the rock with the palys on it, or scrubbing the rock bare with a toothbrush in a small space with no to limited airflow).

The zoas and palys release the toxin as a defensive measure, so as long as they don’t feel threatened, they shouldn’t release enough toxin to cause any sort of issue.

Again, use PPE and don’t do anything unwise, and you should be fine.

 

[Chrisv.]

There are actually a pretty large number of corals that produce toxins that can be harmful to people.

For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goniopora_toxin?wprov=sfla1

 

[littlebigreef]

Some people are more sensitive than others to stuff. You work hands-on fragging enough corrals and you'll likely find something that irritates you eventually.

@rja the stuff in your pic presents no issues until you start ripping stuff out due to over crowding. Even then you can toss in a bag of chemi-pure and all the aquarium's inhabitants will be fine.

 

[rja]

Some people are more sensitive than others to stuff. You work hands-on fragging enough corrals and you'll likely find something that irritates you eventually.

@rja the stuff in your pic presents no issues until you start ripping stuff out due to over crowding. Even then you can toss in a bag of chemi-pure and all the aquarium's inhabitants will be fine.

Yeah I plan on either sticking those implosions in a cave on the sand and just let them survive. I never really plan on fragging. I have an entire side of the tank dedicated to zoas and im going to have euphyllia as a buffer to keep them from taking over the entire tank. But in all honesty I wouldn’t even mind if they did.

 

[Spare time]

The risk varies between each species of paly and zoa, and the main risk comes from hydrogen peroxide dips, fragging, or handling the coral. I've seen someone dip palys/zoas in hydrogen peroxide and it spewed massive amounts of the palytoxin out. This is coming form having worked years at an lfs.



Keep in mind that when someone says x cause y in their tank, its almost always a guess. I can almost guarentee you that, in the video you watched, that guy had absolutely no way of telling if a palytoxin was doing anything to his fish and corals unless he experimentally observed this or at least ran a correlation test on data he collected.

 

[rja]

The risk varies between each species of paly and zoa, and the main risk comes from hydrogen peroxide dips, fragging, or handling the coral. I've seen someone dip palys/zoas in hydrogen peroxide and it spewed massive amounts of the palytoxin out. This is coming form having worked years at an lfs.



Keep in mind that when someone says x cause y in their tank, its almost always a guess. I can almost guarentee you that, in the video you watched, that guy had absolutely no way of telling if a palytoxin was doing anything to his fish and corals unless he experimentally observed this or at least ran a correlation test on data he collected.

I agree, like I said, he was also talking about how dilapidated the tank was— how heavy metals were leeching and oxidizing in the system. I really think it would be more known if palys could wipe out a whole tank. Like the smallest tanks usually feature some sort of zoanthid, I think it would be common knowledge to avoid polyps at that point.

 

[Spare time]

I agree, like I said, he was also talking about how dilapidated the tank was— how heavy metals were leeching and oxidizing in the system. I really think it would be more known if palys could wipe out a whole tank. Like the smallest tanks usually feature some sort of zoanthid, I think it would be common knowledge to avoid polyps at that point.

If you'd like, I can send you some published papers on the topic. I can get most for free so if you find one and wants you to pay for it you can send it over and I can get you a pdf.

 

[Chrisv.]

The risk varies between each species of paly and zoa, and the main risk comes from hydrogen peroxide dips, fragging, or handling the coral. I've seen someone dip palys/zoas in hydrogen peroxide and it spewed massive amounts of the palytoxin out. This is coming form having worked years at an lfs.



Keep in mind that when someone says x cause y in their tank, its almost always a guess. I can almost guarentee you that, in the video you watched, that guy had absolutely no way of telling if a palytoxin was doing anything to his fish and corals unless he experimentally observed this or at least ran a correlation test on data he collected.

This. Spot on.

 

[Snoopdog]

Well after an ER visit, family of four here, I can tell you personally do not underestimate these things. Case in point those nuclear greens in the picture. For a while I was not sure I was going to make it. I am not sure the cat is going to actually make it. This happened just last night.

I was the worst one, likely because my head was over them for a few seconds. While in the ER everyone else started showing similar but not always the same symptom. I would say we were in the ER around 6 hours.

I read past post on here about "unverified reports", or people squirting **** in their eye. I can tell you first hand that these little jerks were baking on frag plugs in the sun for a month and looked like dead leaves on those white plugs. After hitting water for a few hours in a bucket, even people 4-5 rooms away in a large house were in the emergency room. If anyone doubts this I will be sure to scan the hospital reports in and show them what is going to be a massive bill

 

[rja]

Well after an ER visit, family of four here, I can tell you personally do not underestimate these things. Case in point those nuclear greens in the picture. For a while I was not sure I was going to make it. I am not sure the cat is going to actually make it. This happened just last night.

I was the worst one, likely because my head was over them for a few seconds. While in the ER everyone else started showing similar but not always the same symptom. I would say we were in the ER around 6 hours.

I read past post on here about "unverified reports", or people squirting **** in their eye. I can tell you first hand that these little jerks were baking on frag plugs in the sun for a month and looked like dead leaves on those white plugs. After hitting water for a few hours in a bucket, even people 4-5 rooms away in a large house were in the emergency room. If anyone doubts this I will be sure to scan the hospital reports in and show them what is going to be a massive bill

Im very sorry for your experience and I hope everyone ends up being okay. These are very alien-like creatures that shouldn’t be messed around with and I’m sure you totally agree after that point. Certainly no coral “juices” are meant to be ingested by humans. We and corals aren’t built to interact with one another. Fortunately enough, I can confidently say these palys arent going to reach air and if they do I will be wearing goggles, gloves, and especially a respirator. Thank you for your accurate story. My greatest fear is not only the intoxication itself. But, having to present to the emergency room in southeast Michigan claiming a tropical marine coral sprayed poison at me. They wouldn’t even know where to start with me.

 

[Snoopdog]

Im very sorry for your experience and I hope everyone ends up being okay. These are very alien-like creatures that shouldn’t be messed around with and I’m sure you totally agree after that point. Certainly no coral “juices” are meant to be ingested by humans. We and corals aren’t built to interact with one another. Fortunately enough, I can confidently say these palys arent going to reach air and if they do I will be wearing goggles, gloves, and especially a respirator. Thank you for your accurate story. My greatest fear is not only the intoxication itself. But, having to present to the emergency room in southeast Michigan claiming a tropical marine coral sprayed poison at me. They wouldn’t even know where to start with me.

Well it is 6:50am here, it was a rough night. Our cat is not doing well but we are talking to our vet currently and I think she will be okay. For us humans we all feel like we were hit by a truck. Yes these are not to be messed with without putting lots of those into it. When fragging I had been wearing an n95 and hospital gloves but I really looked at these that had been dried outside in the southern heat as no longer a threat, I miscalculated. The nuclear greens are automatically going in a double tied bag in the garbage tomorrow, carefully.

 

[rja]

Well it is 6:50am here, it was a rough night. Our cat is not doing well but we are talking to our vet currently and I think she will be okay. For us humans we all feel like we were hit by a truck. Yes these are not to be messed with without putting lots of those into it. When fragging I had been wearing an n95 and hospital gloves but I really looked at these that had been dried outside in the southern heat as no longer a threat, I miscalculated. The nuclear greens are automatically going in a double tied bag in the garbage tomorrow, carefully.

I heard tribal islanders would coat their spear points with palytoxins— no joke

 

[Snoopdog]

I heard tribal islanders would coat their spear points with palytoxins— no joke

Yeah I read that this morning while doing more research, I posted a long thread with more details just now.

Another story of palytoxin poisoning, recent experience

I contemplated even posting this because hindsight it could had been avoided, be gentle because I am still very sick. Yesterday after mowing the lawn I was looking at my back porch thinking yeah those paly plugs have been out here a month now in the hot southern sun, they are done for and i need...

www.reef2reef.com