Young tank riddled with Metal.

[bychance]

I have a 5 month old 70 gallon lagoon tank. It seems to be doing ok, but not great. I have no signs of coralline algae, some corals are thriving and looking great, while other's of the same type are suffering and dyeing. The coral that is looking great isn't showing signs of growth. I know it's a young tank so I wasn't stressing much. I figured an ICP test would help find what was lacking and I could make the proper adjustments. But the ICP test shows, what in my novice opinion, is a lot of metals.

I've read through some previous post and I'm currently trying to ready Randy Holmes-Farley's article titled "Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals". I'm no chemist and that is a painful read at my education level.

About the tank:
70 gallon tank with sump.
65 gallon total water after sand/LR
Roller Filter
Skimmer
Refugium section in sump
1 MarinePure Block 8"x8"x4" (in refugium section)
25 MarinePure Block 2"x2"x2" (in skimmer/roller filter section of sump)
Canister filter running GFO & Carbon
Canister filter running AquaForest 'Life Bio Fil'
Dose AquaForest 3 part daily using Peristaltic Pump
Low to medium fish load
Rock was all dry store bought (base rock)
Aquaforest Live sand
(I have a build thread that wasn't completed)

My questions:
Is the MarinePure blocks the cause of the metals?
How do I get them out of my tank?

Additional information:
*All my corals are LPS, I tried a few SPS frags with no success. I figured I would let the tank mature before trying them again.
*My nitrates are running around 40 and as you can see I have no phosphates. I was ignorantly using AquaForest NitraPhos Minus until I learned the relationship between nitrates and phosphates. I have just started dosing phosphates (NeoPhos) to see if they will come down naturally with the addition of phosphates. I do have chaeto and some other naturally occurring algae in my sump.
*I am just getting back into the hobby after 12 years. Everything is very different and my knowledge of old ways is fragmented memories which seems to make me more dangerous than a newbie.

 

[taricha]

Aluminum and Tin might be actually elevated. The others may be within test uncertainty of zero (there may be none).

 

[Chrisv.]

Aluminum and Tin might be actually elevated. The others may be within test uncertainty of zero (there may be none).

Do they publish this the margin of error for these tests? It seems like that's the first place to start.

 

[bychance]

Do they publish this the margin of error for these tests? It seems like that's the first place to start.

I did not see this information at a glance. I sent an email asking. They do state:

• Accurate results down to PPT

The testing company is ICP-Analysis ( www.icp-analysis.com )

 

[Chrisv.]

Looking at the thermo-fisher website it seems that these ppb measurements are well within the dynamic range of the instrument. I'm curious to hear their reply.

 

[Uriken]

First off. Welcome back. You and I have things in common. Mainly how things have changed in the course of 10 to 15 years. Your from my old generation where we wanted our numbers at zero for everything we tested accept PH, Alkalinity, and Calcium. Looking at what you have for your setup your equipment isn't far off from what I have either. I guess it goes back again to our old ways to do this. But regardless it still works. Now to the point: I just went through this. Everything was perfect in my tank yet I could just feel that something was off and causing an issue. METALS! As to how and where they came from I'm still combing through yet I'm now back at the source. My water. I make my own water and run it through and RODI but what that water is introduced to has been of interest. I cant offer the culprit or culprits but I can suggest the resin bags you can buy online and in some stores that help absorb stray metals. I apologize but right this second I cant think of the name of it. I'm sure a quick search will bring up some brands. Mine was 12 bucks for the bag. Dropped it in the filter for a week and things got better. If I have to run one for a bit till I figure this out I will. Just keep in mind; not only does it remove metals and contaminates, but it will bottom out PO4 and N03 and do a number on PH. So I found adding things to keep up with the PH, alkalinity, and Calcium is a daily thing. That hasn't changed from the old days accept now there is the fancy dosing pumps.
Hang in there.
Isn't the cost also unusual? I remember when you could get any fish whenever and however. Now its "Out Of Stock" and requiring overtime at the job to buy just one. Then on the other side the SPS seems to be readily available and way cheaper. Go figure.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do they publish this the margin of error for these tests? It seems like that's the first place to start.

No.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Looking at the thermo-fisher website it seems that these ppb measurements are well within the dynamic range of the instrument. I'm curious to hear their reply.

That's not true in general. They also will not give you such info.

But Triton did publish their standard curves for ICP in seawater. It is not plug and play, but needs method development.

There are a number of potential concerns with ICP, but it is not as simple as saying that ppb numbers won't be accurate. Some folks have submitted standard samples to see how the tests came out. IMO, they were not too bad, but it all depends on your expectations. IMO, no one needs to know trace elements to better than a factor of +/- 2x.

This article shows one such test:

Skeptical Reefkeeping 12

Triton Lab ICP-OES Testing of a Certified Artificial Saltwater Standard By Rich Ross and Dr. Chris Maupin At MACNA 25 in Denver, the potential for the new

reefs.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have a 5 month old 70 gallon lagoon tank. It seems to be doing ok, but not great. I have no signs of coralline algae, some corals are thriving and looking great, while other's of the same type are suffering and dyeing. The coral that is looking great isn't showing signs of growth. I know it's a young tank so I wasn't stressing much. I figured an ICP test would help find what was lacking and I could make the proper adjustments. But the ICP test shows, what in my novice opinion, is a lot of metals.

I've read through some previous post and I'm currently trying to ready Randy Holmes-Farley's article titled "Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals". I'm no chemist and that is a painful read at my education level.

About the tank:
70 gallon tank with sump.
65 gallon total water after sand/LR
Roller Filter
Skimmer
Refugium section in sump
1 MarinePure Block 8"x8"x4" (in refugium section)
25 MarinePure Block 2"x2"x2" (in skimmer/roller filter section of sump)
Canister filter running GFO & Carbon
Canister filter running AquaForest 'Life Bio Fil'
Dose AquaForest 3 part daily using Peristaltic Pump
Low to medium fish load
Rock was all dry store bought (base rock)
Aquaforest Live sand
(I have a build thread that wasn't completed)

My questions:
Is the MarinePure blocks the cause of the metals?
How do I get them out of my tank?

Additional information:
*All my corals are LPS, I tried a few SPS frags with no success. I figured I would let the tank mature before trying them again.
*My nitrates are running around 40 and as you can see I have no phosphates. I was ignorantly using AquaForest NitraPhos Minus until I learned the relationship between nitrates and phosphates. I have just started dosing phosphates (NeoPhos) to see if they will come down naturally with the addition of phosphates. I do have chaeto and some other naturally occurring algae in my sump.
*I am just getting back into the hobby after 12 years. Everything is very different and my knowledge of old ways is fragmented memories which seems to make me more dangerous than a newbie.

The Marine pure may be the cause of the aluminum, and I'd consider removing it. It's not likely impacting any other ICP issues.

Tin may be an issue, but I wouldn't go crazy looking for a source (like plastic tubing) unless the tank is apparently suffering.

I don't see other causes for action.

 

[Chrisv.]

That's not true in general. They also will not give you such info.

But Triton did publish their standard curves for ICP in seawater. It is not plug and play, but needs method development.

There are a number of potential concerns with ICP, but it is not as simple as saying that ppb numbers won't be accurate. Some folks have submitted standard samples to see how the tests came out. IMO, they were not too bad, but it all depends on your expectations. IMO, no one needs to know trace elements to better than a factor of +/- 2x.

This article shows one such test:

Skeptical Reefkeeping 12

Triton Lab ICP-OES Testing of a Certified Artificial Saltwater Standard By Rich Ross and Dr. Chris Maupin At MACNA 25 in Denver, the potential for the new

reefs.com

Thanks! This is a great article!

 

[jDoSe]

1 MarinePure Block 8"x8"x4" (in refugium section)
25 MarinePure Block 2"x2"x2"

If you research threads on marinepure, elevated aluminum is essentially a given.

They are a dishonest company that won’t acknoledge this because then they wouldn’t have a product.

 

[taricha]

Do they publish this the margin of error for these tests? It seems like that's the first place to start.

Hilariously, no!
But they will tell you you have ~0.1ppb of a trace metal, just not that their uncertainty in that metal might be 3 or 10ppb or whatever.

 

[bychance]

You and I have things in common. Mainly how things have changed in the course of 10 to 15 years.

I was in my LFS when I was kicking around the idea of getting back into the hobby. A guy was asking for suggestions for dosing nitrates and phosphates. It blew my mind.... as for pricing... whoah... They were just starting to give nice looking corals funky names, but this seems to have driven prices WAY up.

The Marine pure may be the cause of the aluminum, and I'd consider removing it. It's not likely impacting any other ICP issues.

Tin may be an issue, but I wouldn't go crazy looking for a source (like plastic tubing) unless the tank is apparently suffering.

I don't see other causes for action.

Based on past life experience, these blocks seemed like the silver bullet to nitrification bacteria. Small footprint with incredible surface area. I have never had an ICP test before, I'm not sure if there were available back then.

I will work on the trace elements that may be effecting growth. Slowly change out the bio cubs for base rock. I am working hard to keep the system pest free and have stayed away from LR for that reason.

 

[bychance]

I got a response from ICP-Analysis. They stated:

The margin of error labeled on the machine is stated at 5% but we find most of ours to be at about 2% and under.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I got a response from ICP-Analysis. They stated:

The margin of error labeled on the machine is stated at 5% but we find most of ours to be at about 2% and under.

I'm more than skeptical.

The link I posted above related to Triton shows some errors well over 100%.

Here's how I interpreted some of my results:

My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley - REEFEDITION

Recently, Triton GmbH in Germany has initiated a method of testing many ions at once for a single price. In the US, that service is coordinated by Unique Corals. For $49 they will send you a couple of tubes to collect a tank water sample, and a prepaid mailer to send the sample back to them...

www.reefedition.com

I am not, at present, able to make any comment on the accuracy of Triton’s testing.

Manganese (Mn). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of manganese (0.17 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.12 µg/L. Detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing, but I have less confidence that this one is really seriously depleted since it is so close to the LOD. But Mn is biologically important and I will consider it.

Vanadium (V). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of vanadium (1.8 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.9 µg/L. Still, detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing.

Chromium (Cr). Chromium is present in natural seawater at roughly 0.3 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.9 µg/L), so having none detected may be fine. We cannot really tell much, unless there is a substantial excess.

Cobalt (Co). Cobalt is present in natural seawater at roughly 0.006 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.4 µg/L), so having none detected may be fine. We cannot really tell much, unless there is a substantial excess.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Triton no longer shows this web page from 2016, but it shows their accuracies and limits of detection at the time:

Wayback Machine

 

[bychance]

I am not, at present, able to make any comment on the accuracy of Triton’s testing.

Manganese (Mn). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of manganese (0.17 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.12 µg/L. Detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing, but I have less confidence that this one is really seriously depleted since it is so close to the LOD. But Mn is biologically important and I will consider it.

Vanadium (V). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of vanadium (1.8 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.9 µg/L. Still, detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing.

Chromium (Cr). Chromium is present in natural seawater at roughly 0.3 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.9 µg/L), so having none detected may be fine. We cannot really tell much, unless there is a substantial excess.

Cobalt (Co). Cobalt is present in natural seawater at roughly 0.006 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.4 µg/L), so having none detected may be fine. We cannot really tell much, unless there is a substantial excess.

I responded to ICP-Analysis' email asking if they have LOD information available.

I was of the illusion the ICP test was a definitive way of knowing what exactly was going on in my aquarium.

Also, Google says: 1 ug/L = 1 ppb
True? Seems to simple of a conversion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I responded to ICP-Analysis' email asking if they have LOD information available.

I was of the illusion the ICP test was a definitive way of knowing what exactly was going on in my aquarium.

Also, Google says: 1 ug/L = 1 ppb
True? Seems to simple of a conversion.

1 ppb always equals 1 ug/kg

but seawater weighs a little more than 1 kg/L

35 ppt seawater weighs about 1.023 kg/L

So 1 ppb = 1 ug/kg = 1 ug/kg x 1.023 kg/L = 1.023 ug/L

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was of the illusion the ICP test was a definitive way of knowing what exactly was going on in my aquarium.

It can be a very good way if it is done properly. It is very challenging to do complex tests for many ions at once for the low costs that hobby companies charge.

By way of comparison, I routinely get certain samples for my job tested for a single chemical. That single chemical test costs $80, with a minimum batch fee of >$4,000 even if I only submit one sample. That said, I expect high quality results and I get them.

 

[Idech]

I don’t know anything about water testing but isn’t chlorine extremely elevated at close to 20 000 ppm ?