Your fish on drugs

[lion king]

Mind you I'm just a common hobbyist, not an internet expert, so these are just my opinions based on my own experience and observations.

Just something to think about before using meds as a prophylactic treatment; using tank cleaners, even ones masquerading as bacteria; or any other questionable chemical additions. Just think about it, just as meds, chemicals, and environmental factors effect the organs and health of humans; do you not think the same is that for our animal friends.

I did most of my research in this area before the internet and the ease of digital photography, so I don't have alot of visual information. You'll have to trust that I have seen dozens of examples as in the pics below. Copper even being more fast acting and sometimes leaving the organs in a mushy state. the 1st pic of of a dwarf species lion that lived with me over 8 years. The 2nd pic is of a dwarf species lion a year after being treated with a broad range antibiotic. Notice the healthy liver color in the 1st pic, and notice the black hemorrhaged line in the 2nd pic. This is the type of liver damage I've seen dozens of times with fish treated with copper and antibiotics. Sometimes they kill fast, sometimes they kill slow.

The thing is I'm a simple hobbyist, there are alot smarter people than I out there. This is the reason I would never buy from a supplier that runs meds in their system or people that treat prophylactically.

EDIT: the pics got reversed, you can see the damage in the 1st pic, the 2nd pic is the healthy liver.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Actually, the second picture shows fatty liver disease. See how the liver is tan, not red? The green bile stain is also a symptom. Then, look at the huge amount of coelomic fat below it. If you had taken a chunk of that liver, I bet it would have floated in seawater - that would confirm hepatic lipidosis.

Jay

 

[lion king]

Actually, the second picture shows fatty liver disease. See how the liver is tan, not red? The green bile stain is also a symptom. Then, look at the huge amount of coelomic fat below it. If you had taken a chunk of that liver, I bet it would have floated in seawater - that would confirm hepatic lipidosis.

Jay

That is a dwarf lion over 10 years old which is close to their lifespan in the wild. Easy to compare fatty deposit of youtube dissections. This liver is in good conditions considering his age.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That is a dwarf lion over 10 years old which is close to their lifespan in the wild. Easy to compare fatty deposit of youtube dissections. This liver is in good conditions considering his age.

FWIW - here is something I wrote up on this topic:

Fatty liver disease (Hepatic lipidosis)
A major chronic health problem facing most long-term captive fishes is “fatty liver disease,” or liver degeneration. Fish do not assimilate fats well, so often, if a fish's diet is too high in fat, it will then be deposited in various tissues, especially the liver. Unlike with mammals, this fat is not readily usable during times of starvation. Even if food is withheld from a fat-laden fish, very little of the fat is ever reconverted into usable energy. Some fish do not show outward signs of obesity, especially sedentary species such as groupers and lionfish. In these, fatty liver disease may only be diagnosed after death, when sections of the liver will show oil droplets and pieces of the liver itself will float in sea water. With many animals, a period of acute anorexia can cause liver damage.

Fatty liver disease is most common in adult fish whose growth rate has slowed considerably. Younger fish tend to grow fast enough to minimize fat deposition—excess calories are turned into muscle tissue instead. With long-term captive fish, fatty liver disease is the leading cause of (or contributor to) death. Virtually every lionfish held in captivity longer than three years will show evidence of fatty liver disease upon necropsy.

What techniques are available to solve this problem? Nothing can be done for a fish once fatty liver disease has become evident. Prevention is the only course of action an aquarist can take. Simply putting the fish on a "diet" may not work, in that this may result in increased aggression towards other fish in the aquarium. The best solution is to avoid feeding herbivores diets high in meat proteins and to train carnivores to feed on low-protein, low-fat diets such as squid or gelatin diet. Also, avoid feeding any saturated fats to fish. Overall dietary fat levels should be less than 16% in actively growing fish and less than 9% in adult fish.

There has also been a theory that feeding freshwater fish to predatory marine fish will cause malnutrition and fatty liver disease. Most of the rationale behind this has to do with slightly different fat profiles between marine and freshwater prey fish species. Credence is given to the theory when so many marine aquarists report that they lost their lionfish to liver degeneration after feeding them live freshwater goldfish (See the next section for an alternative hypothesis regarding issues with feeder goldfish). In reality, they would have run into the same trouble had they fed any single fish species as a diet for their lionfish. Feeding carnivores too frequently can also cause fatty liver disease. The general recommendation is to feed larger carnivores only twice a week.

 

[lion king]

FWIW - here is something I wrote up on this topic:

Fatty liver disease (Hepatic lipidosis)
A major chronic health problem facing most long-term captive fishes is “fatty liver disease,” or liver degeneration. Fish do not assimilate fats well, so often, if a fish's diet is too high in fat, it will then be deposited in various tissues, especially the liver. Unlike with mammals, this fat is not readily usable during times of starvation. Even if food is withheld from a fat-laden fish, very little of the fat is ever reconverted into usable energy. Some fish do not show outward signs of obesity, especially sedentary species such as groupers and lionfish. In these, fatty liver disease may only be diagnosed after death, when sections of the liver will show oil droplets and pieces of the liver itself will float in sea water. With many animals, a period of acute anorexia can cause liver damage.

Fatty liver disease is most common in adult fish whose growth rate has slowed considerably. Younger fish tend to grow fast enough to minimize fat deposition—excess calories are turned into muscle tissue instead. With long-term captive fish, fatty liver disease is the leading cause of (or contributor to) death. Virtually every lionfish held in captivity longer than three years will show evidence of fatty liver disease upon necropsy.

What techniques are available to solve this problem? Nothing can be done for a fish once fatty liver disease has become evident. Prevention is the only course of action an aquarist can take. Simply putting the fish on a "diet" may not work, in that this may result in increased aggression towards other fish in the aquarium. The best solution is to avoid feeding herbivores diets high in meat proteins and to train carnivores to feed on low-protein, low-fat diets such as squid or gelatin diet. Also, avoid feeding any saturated fats to fish. Overall dietary fat levels should be less than 16% in actively growing fish and less than 9% in adult fish.

There has also been a theory that feeding freshwater fish to predatory marine fish will cause malnutrition and fatty liver disease. Most of the rationale behind this has to do with slightly different fat profiles between marine and freshwater prey fish species. Credence is given to the theory when so many marine aquarists report that they lost their lionfish to liver degeneration after feeding them live freshwater goldfish (See the next section for an alternative hypothesis regarding issues with feeder goldfish). In reality, they would have run into the same trouble had they fed any single fish species as a diet for their lionfish. Feeding carnivores too frequently can also cause fatty liver disease. The general recommendation is to feed larger carnivores only twice a week.

All true, but in my case I think you fail to see that this fish lived to close to a wild lifespan. There will obviously be decay at the end of a long life, that is different than after 3 years or so. Back in the day I used to keep volitans as long as 5 years on a goldfish diet, while today people can barely keep them 3 years. There is a bit more to some predatory fish that does not fit the mold of most captive fish. Toxicity in any form seems to effect some predatory fish more than others, I have a theory about the use of Ethoxyquin in prepared predator blend foods that may also contribute to a shortened life. As well as toxic nutrient build up from fortified foods and the misuse of supplements. The over feeding thing is big and the balance of vit B1 to thiaminese. Today I am keeping most of my lions and scorps close to a wild lifespan.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

All true, but in my case I think you fail to see that this fish lived to close to a wild lifespan. There will obviously be decay at the end of a long life, that is different than after 3 years or so. Back in the day I used to keep volitans as long as 5 years on a goldfish diet, while today people can barely keep them 3 years. There is a bit more to some predatory fish that does not fit the mold of most captive fish. Toxicity in any form seems to effect some predatory fish more than others, I have a theory about the use of Ethoxyquin in prepared predator blend foods that may also contribute to a shortened life. As well as toxic nutrient build up from fortified foods and the misuse of supplements. The over feeding thing is big and the balance of vit B1 to thiaminese. Today I am keeping most of my lions and scorps close to a wild lifespan.

Yes, the next section in my book discusses thiaminase, another issue that I've worked on over the years. Vitamin E and Thiamin are the two most commonly deficient nutrients in fish diets.

jay