Your Resident Electrician for all your electrical questions!

[Sleepydoc]

Need some help with a relay.

I want to run a USB air pump to run a skimmer but I want to have it shut off if the water level drops too low. Is there a 5 volt relay that can work off a float switch?

Usually the problem with skimmers is if the water level is too high. The issue is the current, not the voltage. Float switches can only handle very low current loads. The coils in relays can also cause voltage spikes when the switch on and off. You’d be best off having an interface between the float switch and the relay.

 

[Ray Laneville]

@Paul B

 

[salty150]

So, my understanding is that each 15A circuit can handle safely about 1440W - correct?

So, if you have more than 1400W - say 2400W - can you just split the load by plugging half the equipment into one outlet - and then the other half into a different outlet on a different circuit/breaker?

I assume so... but I have learned the hard way never to assume...

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

So, if you have more than 1400W - say 2400W - can you just split the load by plugging half the equipment into one outlet - and then the other half into a different outlet on a different circuit/breaker?

yes

 

[waitwut]

Just want to sanity check my thinking - I am concerned about both fire protection/safety and also minimising the risk of a stray drip or a faulty heater tripping a main RCD while I'm out and taking out my entire tank along with half my apartment. I already have RCD/GFCI devices installed in my junction box (I'm in Europe so they're mandatory) - there's two of them with the circuits split between them.

I'd like to install another RCD/GFCI device just on the circuit for the room with my aquarium - that way if it does trip, my internet stays on and I can still get a notification out from my GHL Profilux to warn me. Also reduces the risk of an issue in another part of the apartment taking out the aquarium as well.

I'm planning to replace the breaker for this circuit with a combination RCD/circuit breaker installed in parallel with the existing RCD devices (not after them). It's rated the same as the existing breaker (16A) and the existing RCD devices (30mA). Am I correct in thinking these are ok to be connected directly to the power supply coming into the apartment? i.e not after another RCD/main circuit breaker like the regular circuit breakers for the other circuits - the RCD devices are also 40A breakers.

Also, is there any value in adding in RCD/circuit breakers on the individual power strips (either plug-in devices or hard wired ones like this)? It would be amazing if I could isolate a power cut due to ground leakage down to a single power strip like you can with GFCI outlets, would a 10mA RCD like that reliably trip before a 30mA one in series or are they likely to trip together? Is 10mA too sensitive? Now that I type it out I guess it's probably down to the reaction time more than the sensitivity and these cheap things are not likely to win that race . . .

I do like the idea of having individual circuit breakers/overload protection on each power strip to potentially reduce the risk of a fire but I don't think 16A is going to be useful as the whole circuit has a 16A breaker on it already, maybe 10A would offer some protection?

Down the line I may run in new cabling for a dedicated circuit and wire up a junction box dedicated to the aquarium but that's too much right now - and it's not really drawing that much power . . . yet . . .

 

[Confused]

Just want to sanity check my thinking - I am concerned about both fire protection/safety and also minimising the risk of a stray drip or a faulty heater tripping a main RCD while I'm out and taking out my entire tank along with half my apartment. I already have RCD/GFCI devices installed in my junction box (I'm in Europe so they're mandatory) - there's two of them with the circuits split between them.

I'd like to install another RCD/GFCI device just on the circuit for the room with my aquarium - that way if it does trip, my internet stays on and I can still get a notification out from my GHL Profilux to warn me. Also reduces the risk of an issue in another part of the apartment taking out the aquarium as well.

I'm planning to replace the breaker for this circuit with a combination RCD/circuit breaker installed in parallel with the existing RCD devices (not after them). It's rated the same as the existing breaker (16A) and the existing RCD devices (30mA). Am I correct in thinking these are ok to be connected directly to the power supply coming into the apartment? i.e not after another RCD/main circuit breaker like the regular circuit breakers for the other circuits - the RCD devices are also 40A breakers.

Also, is there any value in adding in RCD/circuit breakers on the individual power strips (either plug-in devices or hard wired ones like this)? It would be amazing if I could isolate a power cut due to ground leakage down to a single power strip like you can with GFCI outlets, would a 10mA RCD like that reliably trip before a 30mA one in series or are they likely to trip together? Is 10mA too sensitive? Now that I type it out I guess it's probably down to the reaction time more than the sensitivity and these cheap things are not likely to win that race . . .

I do like the idea of having individual circuit breakers/overload protection on each power strip to potentially reduce the risk of a fire but I don't think 16A is going to be useful as the whole circuit has a 16A breaker on it already, maybe 10A would offer some protection?

Down the line I may run in new cabling for a dedicated circuit and wire up a junction box dedicated to the aquarium but that's too much right now - and it's not really drawing that much power . . . yet . . .

I'm not from Europe. You can always add a down stream GFCI, (never heard of RCD resident current devices, think thats an outlet.) but If I'm understanding this, you are getting false trips? anyways no breakers should be tripping, unless you did it on purpose. you're 110% best option is to call a local sparky and just tell him what happening and what you'd like and get a few quotes.
I wouldn't go above 20 amps As for my tank I ran a single 30 amp circuit with #10 on a Highspeed 20amp outlet Nema 5-20 non GFci/AFci mounted high, from there I have a 2500watt UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) with all my important stuff on the UPS and less important stuff on a basic but not cheap surge protector. so on a power failure my tanks return, waves, and heat all stay on but lights and silly things shutoff. my tanks in the basement my panel is 20 feet away with open ceilings as a licensed electrician took me 25 minutes and 40 bucks in parts that I mainly "stole" from work haha.
My tank is 90 gallons and I use at max with lights and heaters and everything going at once which is rare but I max out at 1000 watts if I round up, 1000w / 120v = 8.3amp and an standard 20 amp breaker can hold 80% of it value so a 20 amp breaker is good for 16 amps and below forever. but you hit 17amps you might get 2 hours you might get 2 weeks before it trips due to the time inverse delay of breakers, you can buy an AMP probe and take some amp readings to see how much your tank is pulling. if your having electrical problems always call a local electrician.

From my time in the field I spend a lot of time replacing GFCi/AFCi breakers and outlets that failure, or that are just casing nuisance tripping to fridges or server racks. If your outlet is near a sink, shower, piped in water source (forever water from ground), you're stuck using a GFCi. Me personally would not call a fish tank a water source unless you have hard copper pipe to it.

sensitivity is set at the factory. some are more sensitive then others, you don't want to look at tuneable breakers you'll need to hire a man to set it. its a real nightmare and like 1000s of bucks a breaker. tend to find them in factorys or hospitals as long as you've been wired up to the NFPA70 the bare spec fires and stuff very very very unlikely to happen, you would have to purposely start a fire with it.

Hopefully that answered something for ya.

 

[Paul B]

I wouldn't go above 20 amps As for my tank I ran a single 30 amp circuit with #10 on a Highspeed 20amp outlet Nema 5-20 non GFci/AFci mounted high,

I don't exactly understand this (and I am a master A Rated Electrician)
You can't legally install a 20 amp outlet on a 30 amp circuit breaker.

What is a "High Speed 20 amp outlet?"
I retired almost 20 years ago so maybe it's a new thing.

 

[Confused]

I don't exactly understand this (and I am a master A Rated Electrician)
You can't legally install a 20 amp outlet on a 30 amp circuit breaker.

What is a "High Speed 20 amp outlet?"
I retired almost 20 years ago so maybe it's a new thing.

I apologize miss type its a Nema 6-30, its a 30 amp double straight. the APC 2500 requires this.

 

[alain Bouchard]

I was wondering...Am I the only one who put its electrical socket near the top of the wall in my fish room? Is there any reason why I shouldnt have done it?

 

[Paul B]

Is there any reason why I shouldnt have done it?

No, you can put an outlet anywhere even on the ceiling. Maybe not in a swimming pool.

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

Are auto resetting GFIs worth it? We will not have a GFI outlet and I was considering putting one of these inline



Rick

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Are auto resetting GFIs worth it? We will not have a GFI outlet and I was considering putting one of these inline



Rick

they operate just like any other gfci, so if it trips and your not home for a week your tank will be off until you reset that red button, I personally would never put any life saving or important equipment on a gfci...a fish tank is not required to be on a gfci

 

[EricR]

they operate just like any other gfci, so if it trips and your not home for a week your tank will be off until you reset that red button, I personally would never put any life saving or important equipment on a gfci...a fish tank is not required to be on a gfci

Interesting.
I was wavering back and forth but eventually installed a GFCI outlet specifically for (and only for) my aquarium equipment.
*no "trips" in the 2+ years since I installed it but I guess we'll see how it plays out long term

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Interesting.
I was wavering back and forth but eventually installed a GFCI outlet specifically for (and only for) my aquarium equipment.
*no "trips" in the 2+ years since I installed it but I guess we'll see how it plays out long term

yeah I have gfci receptacles that never trip either...until they do, it's just that they are not required, and as long as you plan your electrical smart there is no need for a gfci with the potential of an unwanted trip when you're not around to reset it. they also suffer from false trips from equipment not just water that's a common misconception that when water is involved it needs to have a gfci.

 

[alton]

The manual reset GFCI's are for construction use. If power goes out the last thing you want is the equipment to come back on without warning. All others there is no issue if power goes out, the GFCI will continue working just fine when power is restored. For best protection keep your return pump on it's own GFCI protection, so nothing else trips it. I have learned over the years a camera like wyze is a cheap investment to watch over your tank. 210.8 A 11 requires GFCI protection for indoor wet and damp locations. Your aquarium could be considered a wet or at least a damp location.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

210.8 A 11 requires GFCI protection for indoor wet and damp locations. Your aquarium could be considered a wet or at least a damp location.

it's not considered a damp location, a gfci on an aquarium is not required.

unless it's built into the plans or specified by AHJ

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

it's not considered a damp location, a gfci on an aquarium is not required.

I'd say it's arguably a damp location, and when it comes to electricity, most would err on the side of caution. When I say "most" that comes from me wearing the hat of a forensic engineer, like when something goes wrong (insurance claim) and everyone with "exposure" needs an engineer/expert witness and we go down the legal rabbit hole

Damp Location: Locations protected from weather and not subject to​

saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of​

moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations​

under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and​

interior locations subject to moderated degrees of moisture, such as some​

basements, some barns, and some cold storage buildings. ​

The key word here that a lawyer (and experts) would have here is "moderate". That's pretty broad.
The real issue here is that everyone hates GFCIs because if they trip, you can lose circulation. If you're not home, that's very much bad. But GFCI and AFCI are life-safety devices and the code only gets more conservative 99.99999% of the time. GFCI and ACFI are going to be required everywhere as soon as technology can make it happen (i.e. ranges, dryers, large equipment, etc). Believe me, it's coming. I sat in on a 2 day conference about this 2 months ago.

This is always a good discussion point though, GFCI or not GFCI. What it comes down to when people have problems with GFCIs tripping is usually that they are using cheap GFCIs, or there's a wiring issue. They do make more robust GFCIs that are appropriate for motor loads. GFCIs can also trip when T5HO or other ballasted lights fire up. They make self-resetting GFCIs. There are plenty of ways to have both protection and convenience, but they are not always cheap.

But on the other hand, I tend to agree on this part

unless it's built into the plans or specified by AHJ

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

I'd say it's arguably a damp location, and when it comes to electricity, most would err on the side of caution. When I say "most" that comes from me wearing the hat of a forensic engineer, like when something goes wrong (insurance claim) and everyone with "exposure" needs an engineer/expert witness and we go down the legal rabbit hole

Damp Location: Locations protected from weather and not subject to​

saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of​

moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations​

under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and​

interior locations subject to moderated degrees of moisture, such as some​

basements, some barns, and some cold storage buildings. ​

The key word here that a lawyer (and experts) would have here is "moderate". That's pretty broad.
The real issue here is that everyone hates GFCIs because if they trip, you can lose circulation. If you're not home, that's very much bad. But GFCI and AFCI are life-safety devices and the code only gets more conservative 99.99999% of the time. GFCI and ACFI are going to be required everywhere as soon as technology can make it happen (i.e. ranges, dryers, large equipment, etc). Believe me, it's coming. I sat in on a 2 day conference about this 2 months ago.

This is always a good discussion point though, GFCI or not GFCI. What it comes down to when people have problems with GFCIs tripping is usually that they are using cheap GFCIs, or there's a wiring issue. They do make more robust GFCIs that are appropriate for motor loads. GFCIs can also trip when T5HO or other ballasted lights fire up. They make self-resetting GFCIs. There are plenty of ways to have both protection and convenience, but they are not always cheap.

But on the other hand, I tend to agree on this part

alot of people like to make the reach and grab that word damp location, and misinformation spreads, but the average home aquariums that are not built in and only use a recpticle in a home have no requirements.

I'd love to grab my code book and thumb thrugh it for examples but I already have it's just not the case, if you want to go and put a gfci on your tank great do it, I won't be, but I make sure my electric is done correctly so I have no worries or needs for this "protection "

have a great day

 

[alton]

Whether your in your laundry room soaking your clothes in a sink, washing dishes in a kitchen sink, washing hands in your bathroom sink, all receptacles are required to have GFCI protection. To place your hands in your tank while everything around you is energized including several submersible pumps/heater in your tank and sump and say you do not need protection? Does anyone here disconnect all power before placing hands in tank, does anyone here test for amperage before sticking hands in sump. Or does everyone here believe in my equipment will never go bad?

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

but the average home aquariums that are not built in

Valid point - there might not actually be a set-in-stone code requirement. I was mainly just rambling on about how the walls are closing in on everything in a dwelling being GFCI no matter what - that's where it's headed. AFCI is already there with a few exceptions and dual function breakers will be in there too, just give it time.

To place your hands in your tank while everything around you is energized including several submersible pumps/heater in your tank and sump and say you do not need protection?

"need" vs "required" - 2 different things. I'm in agreement that it's something that should be done. Whether or not it's required, that could depend on local adoption of the code and variances. But if you talk to a lawyer, the NEC is nationwide and codified - once it is published it technically becomes law. It's kind of a weird legal area to have something that is a legal standard but have it not apply in a state that isn't enforcing it yet.