Zero nitrate, 0.2 phosphate

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We don't have any clear evidence that amino acid of nitrate dosing is effective either. Most of the people who do it have something like 2 ppm of no3 and think that they are ULNS and starving their corals (or something measurable) and want to get to 10 or 20. Like having more of an excess is better than having less of an excess.

Kale is a good false equivalency since it is a waste product too. I like it.

There are many posts from folks who believe that initiating nitrate dosing improved the color of pale corals, while there is almost no one who has ever comapred ammonia dosing to nitrate dosing to see if there's any difference in the N source.

 

[Miami Reef]

I don’t want my corals to lose energy to uptake nitrate. If “weight gain” is the goal aka
growth, then I will give the corals the form they will utilize the easiest. No?

I ensure there is adequate nitrate, but I don’t count on it as the primary N source.

 

[Miami Reef]

Also, I thought it was well known that zooxanthella/dinoflagellates prefer amino acids. Was that assumption not correct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t want my corals to lose energy to uptake nitrate. If “weight gain” is the goal aka
growth, then I will give the corals the form they will utilize the easiest. No?

I ensure there is adequate nitrate, but I don’t count on it as the primary N source.

That's a foir point, but there are many things where you may not do what is going to give them the "most" energy, including lighting (how bright is optimal?) and feeding particulate foods they most want to eat (which may mitigate entirely the need for dissolved N and P.

Why not give them vinegar? The zoox metabolize the acetate, giving them energy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also, I thought it was well known that zooxanthella/dinoflagellates prefer amino acids. Was that assumption not correct?

The short answer is I do not know.

IMO, there are very few "preference" types of studies, applying to very few corals in one particular circumstance. I'd also add that what they prefer in one situation may not be what is best for them IF there are different sources available than what has naturally arisen to be most available.

For example, many mammals have evolved a strong preference for salty foods since sodium and chloride are hard to get in many environments, but if it can be provided in sufficient quantities, is it best to keep eating more because they prefer it?

 

[Miami Reef]

Why not give them vinegar? The zoox metabolize the acetate, giving them energy.

I do dose vinegar primarily for that reason! I also assume the vinegar will take nitrates and phosphate, and convert them to bacterial mass which will also feed the corals and sponges.

 

[Miami Reef]

For example, many mammals have evolved a strong preference for salty foods since sodium and chloride are hard to get in many environments, but if it can be provided in sufficient quantities, is it best to keep eating more because they prefer it?

That’s a good thought-provoking question!

I wouldn’t think overdosing on an N source would have the same effect as mammals overdosing on salt?

It seems like the best approach is a balanced one. Don’t limit any of the N sources, and let the corals decide what’s best for them. I do think adding some amino acids occasionally can be beneficial, even if there are other N sources available.

Particulate nutrients (bacteria, food particles, urea etc) shouldn’t be limited either.

 

[biom]

For example, many mammals have evolved a strong preference for salty foods since sodium and chloride are hard to get in many environments, but if it can be provided in sufficient quantities, is it best to keep eating more because they prefer it?

Even better example - sugar humans evolved in low sugar environment available only in limited time of the year - honey, some fruits and did not developed sugar uptake control mechanisms - result is well seen unfortunately. Not speaking about ethanol... .

 

[biom]

There are many posts from folks who believe that initiating nitrate dosing improved the color of pale corals, while there is almost no one who has ever comapred ammonia dosing to nitrate dosing to see if there's any difference in the N source.

Setting such an experiment is not easy I've tried to experiment few years ago but it was not successful. In my tank ammonia oxidizes very fast and in couple of days it appear as nitrite and nitrate destroying experiment. If started with lower doses was never sure if it is reached corals at all or was just consumed by other creatures/ algae/ bacteria.

Then decided to mix ammonium, nitrate, amino acids and urea, following coral preferences given by some scientific papers and ended in two weeks in nasty boom of hair algae and cyano

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Then decided to mix ammonium, nitrate, amino acids and urea, following coral preferences given by some scientific papers and ended in two weeks in nasty boom of hair algae and cyano

lol

 

[jda]

The people who have indicated that adding nitrate helped their tank a lot also think that nitrate is energy, do not know the difference between nitrate and nitrogen and don't know a building block from a sugar. You have cautioned people about relying on such internet posts on different subjects before, as you should.

The people who do dose ammonium are usually experienced or are pros that raise corals for a living - these don't post much about much of anything... this is true.

We do have plenty of evidence that feeding more adding more fish is actually helpful, but this does also add more than ammoni[a,um]. This is more like one than the other...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The people who have indicated that adding nitrate helped their tank a lot also think that nitrate is energy, do not know the difference between nitrate and nitrogen and don't know a building block from a sugar. You have cautioned people about relying on such internet posts on different subjects before, as you should.

The people who do dose ammonium are usually experienced or are pros that raise corals for a living - these don't post much about much of anything... this is true.

We do have plenty of evidence that feeding more adding more fish is actually helpful, but this does also add more than ammoni[a,um]. This is more like one than the other...

It is certainly possible, and I’d suggest more likely than not, that ammonium dosing is more beneficial than nitrate dosing when done properly.

But I think it’s still an unproven hypothesis, and I think it is most likely untrue that nitrate dosing is not beneficial if it is very low (say, below 0.5 ppm) to begin with.

 

[jda]

I don't disagree, mostly... depending on the maturity of the tank. I could never get no3 up over .5. If I did, it would not be for long since the sandbed bacteria would multiply to chew though it. I know that this is all anecdotal, but I buy frozen food by the kilo and pellets by the gallons and my no3 is constantly around .1, or so. I still believe that residual no3 number is more of a byproduct of anoxic bacteria than nitrogen availability - the anaerobic bacteria are very available in mature systems and are made by nature to consume no3 like it is their job.

At least with ammonium it has a few forms that might be around to get consumed before the anoxic bacteria finish it off.

You just wrote a few paragraphs on LC dosing. Maybe a few paragraphs on safely dosing ammonium next? We might be able to get a modicum of users willing to try and give results.

Off topic, but did you happen to see my EM/ChemiClean post in the experiment forum? If you have any thoughts, they are appreciated.

 

[jda]

BTW - 1ml of Janitorial Strength Ammonium from Ace Hardware in a 70 total gallon system shows no signs of issue. I use this tank as a fish nursery and there are times when the fish get promoted and it can sit empty (or mostly empty) for a few weeks or a month. I do other things too, but this focuses on Nitrogen.

 

[Lebowski_]

There is no doubt that ammonia is preferred as nitrogen source by corals

I was thinking about this thread while I was reading Borneman's Aquarium Corals last night. Interestingly, on page 344 under "Water Chemistry - Ammonia", he states:

Interestingly, nitrate, rather than ammonia, seems to be the preferred source of inorganic nitrogen in corals".

However, he later (page 345) quotes many studies which show that high nitrates have been show to cause

doubled zooxanthellae population, reduced photosynthesis rates, and decreased skeletogenesis.

I only have a few brain cells to rub together, but my take away is that having just enough nitrate in the water that it is there but mainly used up and undetectable is there ideal ecosystem we are aiming for.

I will be honest, I am struggling with reef chemistry. Much like OP, I have 0 nitrates and 0.02-0.04 phospahtes. No amount of feeding seems to matter. I am wondering if using LifeRock and not established LR is the culprit - those nitrates must be going somewhere, I am guessing the explosive growth of my dinos and cyano are the benefactors. In a well established reef, would the bacteria and sponges on the LR remove these compounds before the nuisance algae/bacteria could?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe a few paragraphs on safely dosing ammonium next? We might be able to get a modicum of users willing to try and give results.

Good idea.

 

[Miami Reef]

However, he later (page 345) quotes many studies which show that high nitrates have been show to cause

It’s not the first time reading about nitrates causing issues in corals. I’ll be honest, I am pretty confused on what to do.

Will nitrates around 2-10ppm cause my corals to bleach/die? People say nitrates are good for LPS, while others, like @Hans-Werner says stuff like this:

Nitrate is a strong oxidant and may cause oxidative stress that may bleach zooxanthellae.

I’m so confused. What am I supposed to do??? I just want my corals to be happy, and I’m pretty lost on the nitrate levels I need to target. I wish there was a safe target that everyone can agree on.

I find myself bouncing between low and high nutrients a lot. Conflicting posts aren’t helping my perfectionistic OCD tendencies.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You just wrote a few paragraphs on LC dosing. Maybe a few paragraphs on safely dosing ammonium next? We might be able to get a modicum of users willing to try and give results.

Done:

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[jda]

Let your ecosystem figure out nitrate. If it gets low, then who cares if you are feeding a ton. Nitrogen is the key, not nitrate.

Heavy import and heavy export. It is what is in the middle that matters... ammonia and nitrite for different organisms... metaphosphate instead of orthophosphate (po4 on a test kit).

...just know that no3 at 2 is likely excessive so getting to 10, 20 or 30 is not going to do any more for the corals. If you want to poison dinos or cyano, then that is a different discussion.

There is little doubt that increased no3 can darken colors in true coral and slow down calcification and photosynthesis. The level to which this matters varies from coral to coral and could range from "who cares" to total death. This matters very little in 2023. Many popular corals have been chosen to live in these conditions, people favor the saturated, rich look right now and don't get into a ton of white/light vs contrast. Besides, even if growth was slowed by 50% then most would never know or even care outside of farmers and people who make money with their corals. Lighting matters a ton in this too and I think that there is a correlation that I have posted about many times, but it does not apply a bunch to this discussion directly without a lot of supposition and assumptions.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m so confused. What am I supposed to do??? I just want my corals to be happy, and I’m pretty lost on the nitrate levels I need to target. I wish there was a safe target that everyone can agree on.

I find myself bouncing between low and high nutrients a lot. Conflicting posts aren’t helping my perfectionistic OCD tendencies.

Relax and don't stress too much over nitrate. Richard Ross' tank had 40-100+ ppm nitrate and would be the envy of many folks:

"Current numbers
Phosphate - .72
Nitrate - 75"

Rich Ross - Home Tank - guess the phosphate

This tank was built before r2r, here is a link to some links about the build. http://packedhead.net/home-reef/ Current test results: 03-17-2017 Ammonia (NH3-4) Good 0 0.000 - 0.050 mg/L 03-17-2017 Nitrite (NO2) Good 0.006 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L 03-17-2017 Phosphate...

www.reef2reef.com