A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

[brandon429]

=showed on page one of my thread several times messing with sand didn't work and their stuff died

Then we made an order of ops for safety and bleach prevention and tested it for nine years with new jobs coming fast.

Got any threads of others doing that for sixty pages?

I noticed you don't have work logged for others in the matter, using such easy means


Thankfully we're not debating results here.

 

[brandon429]

Garf you do an honorable job sticking up for Lasse when he inserts himself into my threads to try and poke, I've always respected that.

 

[brandon429]

You two are taking a skip cycle thread and changing it to a rip cleaning argument as carry over beef from chemistry forum threads,

which this isn't

that's called hijacking

Don't u have any work threads or proof threads that are your own you can post in? I won't show up in them/ promise

If you two post here, include links for work you did in other people's tank and relate that to your premise. That's what I do, don't muddy my very clean waters thread. Do some work yourself?

 

[Garf]

Got any threads of others doing that for sixty pages?

Why on earth would I want to log work that others had done and claim them as my own?

I noticed you don't have work logged for others in the matter, using such easy means

I also don't have work threads on how to flush the toilet.

Garf you do an honorable job sticking up for Lasse when he inserts himself into my threads to try and poke, I've always respected that.

I find his content experience led and accurate, as far as I can tell, not being a scientist of any type.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Actually - I was going to set up a new tank - starting with dry rock, bacteria, and corals after a day or 2 - with a couple small fish

You can actually just add corals day 1. The catch is if it's softies, or spa you want to make sure it's attached to plug or rock. Lps is great as the skeleton carries the bacteria. But nothing wrong adding bacteria either lol. I have done this is past as well. Let me know the details in messaging or send me link when you start build. I'll follow along.

And per next post, that is why I always feed after a water change. As I need to add nutrients back in.

There is a way to test I believe ppm in the water column through specialized testing and the type. I saw this on someone asking for advice and turned into a back and forth argument lol. But like you stated, It gives you an idea because they could be concentrated more in different parts of tank for some vs the other.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You two are taking a skip cycle thread and changing it to a rip cleaning argument

Because they all have the same basic content and spurious claims about "new science" and circular webs of links to "jobs" that mostly pan out to be conversations where others try to help you understand (and actually show) where you are wrong.

When all of that back and forth is stripped away we are left with the same time-tested and scientifically proven advice that you decry as "old" but have attempted to co-opt as your "work" wrapped in your rhetoric.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

The problem with these "skip cycle" and "rip clean" advises is that they normally comes from nano reefers where the bio load is very small but often transfers to people with "normal" reef aquarium. I do not doubt that the method works in a nano that in practise get a new start every week. But - IMO - its a total other thing in a normal larger reef aquarium

Source of total ammonia (NH3/NH4)

All living (organic) matters contain proteins. Proteins consist of amino acids that among other things have amino groups - NH2 molecules. When organic matters is consumed (of heterotrophic organisms ) some amino acids is incorporated directly (the essential) and other is transformed into new - species specific - amino acids. This process create a waste of amino groups that´s are released into the environment in different ways. For mammals and many animals on land - its normally by forming of urea that are transferred out from the body through the pee as urin. For heterotrophs that lives in the water its normally by more direct pathways - heterotopic bacteria probably through diffusion (passive transport along a concentration) and gill breathing heterotrophs mostly by active transport (against a concentration) in "ion pumps" located in the gills.

The proteins content around 16 % N and for warmblooded heterotrophs - around 90 % will be washed out and for coldblooded heterotrophs - the corresponded amount is around 75-80 %

Dry food and dry algae often contain around 40 % protein and frozen and fresh food normally contain around 2-4 % protein. Total opposite to the normal though that dry food is "cleaner" than frozen food - dry food many times add more than 10 times more NH3/NH4 to the aquarium compared to frozen food per gram added food.

Fish´s - and especially salt water fish´s - major pathway for NH3/NH4 secretion is through the gills and mostly the first hours after feeding. Around 80 % of the waste N is going this way. saltwater fish does not pee very much.

Heterotrophic bacteria´s secretion is 24/7 if organic matter is present and the rate is depending on the availability of organic carbon. If there is DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) present (and mostly enough of oxygen) - the rate of breakdown is fast, hence more NH3/NH4 out in the water.

The facts above means that in a newly started aquarium with no or low organic matter content - the primary source for NH3/NH4 in the water is from the gill breathing animals (read mainly from the fish) metabolism. If this aquarium only have som tiny fish and will be rip cleaned every week there is no risk for toxic NH3 formation because the tiny amount of NH3/NH4 accumulated will be washed out every week. However if the load of food rise (many hungry fish) in a normal aquarium - the released NH3/NH4 will form toxic NH3 sooner or later if it is not converted and the amount of dead organic matter (that heterotrophic bacteria will consume) will add another source for NH3/NH4,

The reason why "cycle direct" and weekly "rip cleaning" works in a Pico is not that the system have working nitrification or in any way is cycled - is because there is not present (and can not accumulate) any toxic amount of NH3.

Toxicity of ammonia (NH3/NH4)

In many countries you have different name for NH4 and NH3 - in Swedish NH4 is named ammonium and NH3 ammoniac. In the US the most common name for NH4 is ammonia and for NH3 ammonia ion. This often create confusion. NH4 is NOT toxic but NH3 is highly toxic. They will also always be present as a pair (NH3/NH4) in water - often named total ammonia. However - the percentage of each of them can vary (for the same total concentration) mainly because of temperature, salinity and pH. PH is the most important factor.

See figures - calculation done by help of this tool

Blue 25 C, reddish 26 C and green 27 C (77, 78.8 and 80.6 degree F)

This means that if someone read 0.2 mg/L total ammonia (NH3+NH4) is no cow on the ice at all It can´t be any toxic amount of free NH3 in normal pH- pH must be over 9 to even reach the alert concentration (O.06 mg/L NH3)

The nitrification cycle

If not nitrification exist - it should be more or less impossible to hold saltwater aquarium of certain size or without low load and 100% WC each week.

As I said before in post 370 - the nitrification is a 2 step process


This below is the secret both for a successful and an unsuccessful nitrification


This means that they do not need any organic matter at all - if they have NH3/NH4 (first step) NO2 (second step), oxygen. place to live on, inorganic carbon in form of alkalinity. trace amounts of PO4 and few competitors for oxygen and space they will thrive and grow. But - as @Garf already have stated - they are slow growers (from a bacterial perspective) - population doubling time over 13 hours. This means that they have huge problems if they have to many heterotrophic bacteria (need organic matters) that many times can have doublings times down to 15 minutes.

This is the reason why a new clean aquaria can be heaven for these bacteria - no competitors, much oxygen and free space to sit on. They only need energy. They are like algae and plants - they can use external energy but in their case - its not light energy in form of photons - it is the energy differences between NH3/NH4 and NO2 for the first step and NO2 and NO3 in the second step. Normally - these bacteria is everywhere but because of their slow growth - its wise to introduce them in your aquaria - it could be in the form of bottled nitrification bacteria, bacteria film in form of aerobic sludge, stones, water with inorganic particles and so on. But in the start - it is important that not to many heterotrophic bacteria will be introduced and especially not their fuel - organic carbon in form of. Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) - etanol, suger or whatever.

I mentioned the second step and it has been shown that it can halt if total NH4/NH3 is too high - therefore - IMO - all methods including high addition of NH3/NH4 is contra-productive. The ammonia (NH3/NH4) should be add in very low concentrations during time. My 15 steps to start a saltwater aquarium include a method just for this - use a healthy and well feed fish that is feed very sparsely the first three weeks.

IMO - you have around three weeks before the NH3/NH4 production from the heterotrophic bacteria is high enough to interfere with your calculated NH3/NH4 addition but at that time the process should been established and you can slowly rise your bioload - feeding more, adding more fish (need more feed) and so on.

In my mature aquarium - the NH3/NH4 production from my heterotrophic bacteria is - IMO - the main contributors of total ammonia in my aquarium - not the daily feed.

One more thing I have experienced during the years is that if you once have established an high nitrification rate - it seems like the nitrification microorganism can get dormant if the load decline or the process is disturbed. When load is normal or everything is OK again - it works like before. But its always wise to rise the feeding slowly after such events.

The main question - why test.

My 15 steps is sufficiently calculated not to produce toxic levels of NH3 even if NH3/NH4 accumulates - its means - if you follow this - no testing is necessary but if you want to feel safe or start with high levels of total ammonia tests is rather comfortable to do.

I prefer test that give you total ammonia because of the pH depended NH3 to NH3/NH4 relationship. If your test (with seney or other NH3 sensitive methods) says good in the morning - it is not sure that its good in the afternoon when photosynthesis have driven up pH. With total ammonia - you can calculate the risk if you now your afternoon pH peak.

I also prefer tests that give you a number - like the checkers because to read colours is not my cup of tea. Today I use the Hanna Marine Master and I´m rather pleased with that. The readings still needs some thoughts but comparing colours that I not remember is more tricky.

This is a very long post but this discussions pop up the whole time and now I only have to quote this post in every discussion about nitrification cycling that pop up because most important factors are described here.

Sincerely Lasse

Great info as always. I may need to reach out to you and organize the info onto a Google doc to keep and share. I'll keep edit off. Or I can go in and grab info and let you verify I collected correctly lol. Be a while before I start this.

But yes, this works with larger as well just not as practical.

What can be done in a large tank can be done in a small tank and vice versa. I believe the confusion is about scale. If we shrunk our selfs to where a 12 gallon was the same as a 120 gallon, stocked similarly, why would you state that you couldn't. The only difference I can see is size of tank. Some small tanks have a very high bio load that would be equivalent to a large tank. Same thing if we suddenly became giants. Now a 120 looks like a 12, or say even less than 2 gallons. But because of the size it is, I believe practicality and requirement is great making it difficult but not implausible.

I ended up reading in a way then where if that then larger aquariums are overstocked with fish and should not really have that many. Which I do see a lot of. Just because they have a larger tank doesn't mean they can have more fish. This also leads to the need for more equipment to control the overload. So it's not really it can't or shouldn't be done, but more of people overstock and feed their tanks.

The skip cycle though is using live rock that is established. Not one that has been dumped in a tank a few days ago at an lfs but one that has been sitting a while to populate. I guess quality/time. If we added this rock to a new large tank setup the same as with another tank so everything is identical, as far as equipment, there should be no difference adding the bioload.

Another issue I also see is when you get good love rock people drop in and add water immediately. I now believe they should be treated as you would add inverts to tank by acclimating. Because even though it won't hurt bacteria, all the live rock will have micro organisms and hitch hikers. This tends to be the cause of a lot of new tanks using established live rock. Going from one salt setup to a completely different one. Then the spike happens.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

I like that elegance

One of my favorite corals.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

I don't think here anyone is staying it can or cannot be done in skip cycling. It's more or less the amount of effort and how it's done that is in question.

With mature enough (what point is debatable) live rock a tank will not see the spike in ammonia nitrite or nitrate as you would see in how most people setup or would see in a new tank.

This seems to be a question of how mature the live rock needs to be along with the diversity as lasse has pointed out with all the other bacteria and micro organisms and the benefits provided.

Further there is a disconnect from the amount of live rock needed and how much. Little means slow as others have stated and even said lasse again lol that he has a 15 step method where you don't see the typical "cycle" but it's done slowly. This can be applied with adding little live rock. Or if you add all live rock, how much for the bioload desired.

We all can agree the older and more established is better.

What is in dispute seems to be more of the minimum time and how much is actually needed for the desired instant bioload.

Another good question is does the rock contain all the necessary microbes or what nots, bacteria lol for the organisms. So does live rock that sat in a tank for years with no fish, able to handle all the processes that a fish produces not just the ammonia. Again lasse lol.

While skip cycling refers to mainly ammonia nitrite and nitrate, there is other process going on depending on what we keep. This is a different topic and a good one as well.

 

[Lasse]

With mature enough (what point is debatable) live rock a tank will not see the spike in ammonia nitrite or nitrate as you would see in how most people setup or would see in a new tank.

If you use rocks that have been populated with nitrification bacteria in enough amount at another place - you have not skip any cycling - you have only done it in another place. Still you have had to establish a population of nitrifies in enough amount to manage your NH3/NH4 production. If you after that - or if it had happens in the ocean - move the prepared stones or sand to a new aquarium its nothing else than a 100 % WC. The system is already cycled to that bioload of NH3/NH4 that it processed in the other place. This has been don since I started my recent aquarium carrier back in 1974.

If you two post here, include links for work you did in other people's tank and relate that to your premise. That's what I do, don't muddy my very clean waters thread.

Do not ask me for that - if I would do that your thread will be extended for another 30 pages. The references will include starting of around 100 own home aquaria - including propagation system for high pH cichlids.

Starting and maintaining of 200 + different aquaria in 3 different LFS, In one of the LFS I was a part of the team that import and adapt around 30 000 tropical coral fishes during more than 12 years.

Establishing of systems for propagate and farm turbot and cod.

Following up the nitrification cycle with measurements in 6 different recirculation freshwater fish farms where I was a part of the start up team in 5 of them - and main constructor in two.

Follow up and invesetgate the nitrification process in a waste water aquaculture including supervision of students at university level including a doctoral students toxicological studies of this system's various processes. constructing and running a nitrification filter in this system.

Working with toxic substances impact on zebra fish embryons and larva in a toxicological lab.

Starting and maintain differents systems in two different public aquarium including 1400 000 L shark aquarium, 800 000 liters cold seawater aquarium, 200 000 L tropical fresh water system. 150 000 L cold freshwater and 90 000 L cold brackish system i one public aquarium and a 400 000 L reef system in the other (plus a lot of smaller aquariums 1000 - 5000 L)

I maybe forgot some smaller things of theoretical nature

Do some work yourself?

I think that I have done enough with my own hand in order to claim that I know what I´m talking about

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

If you use rocks that have been populated with nitrification bacteria in enough amount at another place - you have not skip any cycling - you have only done it in another place. Still you have had to establish a population of nitrifies in enough amount to manage your NH3/NH4 production. If you after that - or if it had happens in the ocean - move the prepared stones or sand to a new aquarium its nothing else than a 100 % WC. The system is already cycled to that bioload of NH3/NH4 that it processed in the other place. This has been don since I started my recent aquarium carrier back in 1974.

Exactly as you stated, 100 percent water change is all it is. And agree, you never truly skip cycle as it has already been done elsewhere. Even in dry rock startups your still establishing but can do so at a rate where it does not cause or you may see results normally expected from testing.

There is still a myth out there with some where pulling live rock out to another tank means you still need to see the colors on a chart or test for it to be ready. In a sense skipping the cycle is meaning you don't have to wait for the bacteria to populate as it has already been previously achieved. I believe this is more else Brandon's point. With skip cycling. Not talking about using dry rock but using pre established live rock in a new system.

I have actually used fritz and know it works on a personal level to fully stock a tank due to an emergency where prior cracked. The bottle bacteria worked well during this. I do remember testing and having no issues then but don't quite recall.

The other part to Brandon's point is not against testing, but how new people react when they don't see the colors/numbers but already have live rock they used. They then get advice to dose this or add that which further causes issues or problems.

Learning quite a bit today and last night lol.

 

[Garf]

Im a ChatGPT newbie, let's see it's take on tank disturbances, lol;

Disturbances in saltwater tanks can significantly impact nitrification rates, which is the process where beneficial bacteria convert ammonia into nitrites and then nitrates. Here are some ways disturbances can affect this crucial process:

1. **Chemical Disturbances**:
- **Medications and Chemicals**: Adding medications or chemicals such as antibiotics, copper treatments, or algaecides can harm or kill nitrifying bacteria, leading to reduced nitrification rates.
- **Water Quality**: Sudden changes in pH, salinity, or temperature can stress or kill nitrifying bacteria. Nitrification is highly sensitive to these parameters, and even slight variations can reduce the efficiency of ammonia conversion.

2. **Physical Disturbances**:
- **Cleaning and Maintenance**: Overzealous cleaning of filters, substrates, or live rock can remove or disturb the bacterial colonies that are essential for nitrification.
- **Tank Moves or Reconfigurations**: Moving a tank or significant reconfigurations that disturb the substrate or live rock can disrupt the bacterial colonies and their efficiency.

3. **Biological Disturbances**:
- **Overfeeding**: Excess food can increase the organic load, leading to spikes in ammonia that the bacterial colonies may not be able to handle immediately, causing a temporary decrease in nitrification efficiency.
- **Death of Organisms**: Dead fish or invertebrates can cause a sudden increase in ammonia levels, overwhelming the nitrification capacity until the bacterial populations adjust.

4. **Bacterial Imbalance**:
- **Introduction of Competing Bacteria**: Adding new live rock, sand, or even certain additives can introduce new bacteria that may compete with or even predate on the established nitrifying bacteria.

To maintain stable nitrification rates, it's important to manage and minimize disturbances:

- Gradually acclimate tanks to new water parameters.
- Use medications sparingly and carefully follow instructions.
- Clean filter media gently to preserve bacterial colonies.
- Avoid overfeeding and promptly remove uneaten food.
- Monitor water quality regularly and adjust maintenance routines to prevent large fluctuations.

By understanding and mitigating these disturbances, you can help ensure the stability of nitrification processes in your saltwater tank, maintaining a healthy environment for your aquatic inhabitants.

 

[moretor1]

I feel like a lot of the hate this thread recieves is due to the whole "skip" part.

Of course you aren't actually skipping the cycle,
it may be more correct to call it cycle transplanting but the thread is years old so it's a little too late

Regardless I doubt Brandon took the time to ponder the semantics of the title to this thread as it doesn't really change the actual methods but rather how new reefers might interperate those methods

 

[Lasse]

In a sense skipping the cycle is meaning you don't have to wait for the bacteria to populate as it has already been previously achieved.

But its not new cycling science as claimed - I have done that since I started my first freshwater aquaria as a grown up back in 1972. I got some sand from my LFS and feed sparsely the first weeks - nema problema

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Garf]

The other part to Brandon's point is not against testing

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Lasse]

I feel like a lot of the hate this thread recieves is due to the whole "skip" part.

I can´t see any hate in this thread - there is different views there some is not welcome in this thread. But - hate - not.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

But its not new cycling science as claimed - I have done that since I started my first freshwater aquaria as a grow up back in 1972. I got some sand from my LFS and feed sparsely the first weeks - nema problema

Sincerely Lasse

I agree not New but to others and what is normally pushed it maybe the case.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

After reading it a bit I don't see a don't test or not, just more issue with interpreting results and bad advice. And a biased push towards seneye. This view I think is in large confusion between. Traditional cycling where you expect to see numbers vs where you use already established bacteria and you won't see this. Then people give advice that don't understand or under impression you must see these and if you don't force it or.

The other issue comes from when you do see it after the tank is established and the first thing is to creating bandaids and state you bacteria failed rather than treating the source. I see this a bit as well.

I don't know anything about Henry but seems it tests differently where it shows something with the process where API and such just shows it's there and not that the process in still going and bacteria is still all there.

What I got from it lol. I'm more of a basics give me the dummies version person lol

 

[moretor1]

But its not new cycling science as claimed - I have done that since I started my first freshwater aquaria as a grown up back in 1972. I got some sand from my LFS and feed sparsely the first weeks - nema problema

Sincerely Lasse

I agree with what Ben said, to many experienced aquarist this may already be common knowledge but to the "lame" aquarist this is the largest taboo there is.
Most people aren't thinking about or dont understand the ecological systems that work in their tanks.

The amount of people (not here) who have told me that that setting up a tank without the typical 2-4 weeks of cycling time is going to end in disaster outnumber the people who understand it 10:1

To many people the concept of skip cycling is extremely new, especially those who's only sources of info are companies like brstv

 

[Garf]

And a biased push towards seneye.

I think seneye has dealt a fatal blow to these made up stories, to be honest. I don't think Brandon will accept even Seneye results now if calibrated correctly;

Analyzing Hanna Ammonia checker Hi784, chemistry and performance

Which Hach version you thinking of? You only need two if it's freshwater. One version, Hach hides some reagents in the cap. What does seawater need? Citrate? Hach ammonia salicylate sodium salicylate 54-21-7 40-50% sodium nitroferricynade 14402-89-2

www.reef2reef.com