Trace elements debate

[Hooz]

Thanks, I've seen that video before and do not use the balling method. I can only relate my own experience with what occurred with my system. I did 18% weekly water changes and quarterly ICP tests which showed the majority of my trace elements were fine with only minor high or lows on a few. I wasn't dosing any trace or even major elements the majority of the first year due to weekly water changes. Using your opinion, then all my trace elements should have been undetectable during my regular ICP tests but that simply was not the result. I use coral pro salt.

Based on my statement, regular water changes don't replenish anything at the rate that they're used. It slows the decline because you are constantly replacing SOME of them. Depending on your coral load, coral type and level of feeding, etc, there might actually be some trace elements that don't get used at all... In which case your water changes wouldn't affect them at all (swapping out 1 for 1). Or you may have some that become elevated... In which case water changes help keep them in check (but only knocking them back at the same 10% rate).

The video is a Balling Method video, but the part about trace elements and water changes is universal (so is the "Part C" stuff if you use any 2-part dosing solution, not just the TM Balling components). If your tank uses 10ppt of something in a week, and you do a 10% water change, you're only adding back 1ppt. That's a net loss of 9ppt. Every week, until you eventually hit zero. Unless you're doing 100% water changes, they (water changes alone) will never replace all of the trace elements your tank use. It just can't happen.

I'm not saying you can't have a successful tank with JUST water changes. I have a 10g that's been running great for over 3 years now with nothing but weekly 1g water changes.

All I'm saying is that the statement, "Weekly water changes replenish trace elements" is a false statement. I still keep seeing it pop-up in threads like this all the time, though.

 

[Pod_01]

I did 18% weekly water changes and quarterly ICP tests which showed the majority of my trace elements were fine with only minor high or lows on a few.

What is not mentioned, what other things went into the tank besides the new water?

I suspect some food was added! Maybe some coral food etc….
There are many unintentional pathways for trace elements to get back in a tank.

If the tank consumption was so-low that Alk and Calcium was not required it is possible water change was enough to Ballance things out.
But if you consume 50% of something and only add 20% back in your new level will be 70%.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I agree that the debate about water changes and trace elements is clouded by foods containing trace elements. A tank just doing water changes and no dosing cannot claim the water changes are solving a trace element issue unless that same tank demonstrated a problem that was actually solved by starting up water changes.

 

[Lavey29]

What is not mentioned, what other things went into the tank besides the new water?

I suspect some food was added! Maybe some coral food etc….
There are many unintentional pathways for trace elements to get back in a tank.

If the tank consumption was so-low that Alk and Calcium was not required it is possible water change was enough to Ballance things out.
But if you consume 50% of something and only add 20% back in your new level will be 70%.

I only dose trace in between monthly water changes. If I went back to weekly water changes I would only have to dose alk and cal daily in a very heavily stocked tank. Everything else including magnesium would be replenished with my water changes and I would verify this as I do with quarterly ICP tests.

 

[Lavey29]

Based on my statement, regular water changes don't replenish anything at the rate that they're used. It slows the decline because you are constantly replacing SOME of them. Depending on your coral load, coral type and level of feeding, etc, there might actually be some trace elements that don't get used at all... In which case your water changes wouldn't affect them at all (swapping out 1 for 1). Or you may have some that become elevated... In which case water changes help keep them in check (but only knocking them back at the same 10% rate).

The video is a Balling Method video, but the part about trace elements and water changes is universal. If your tank uses 10ppt of something in a week, and you do a 10% water change, you're only adding back 1ppt. That's a net loss of 9ppt. Every week, until you eventually hit zero. Unless you're doing 100% water changes, they (water changes alone) will never replace all of the trace elements your tank use. It just can't happen.

I'm not saying you can't have a successful tank with JUST water changes. I have a 10g that's been running great for over 3 years now with nothing but weekly 1g water changes.

All I'm saying is that the statement, "Weekly water changes replenish trace elements" is a false statement. I still keep seeing it pop-up in threads like this all the time, though.

This is also from the BRS website and videos. I guess they contradict themselves a lot to. As I indicated in my post my first year was weekly water changes. I do agree with you though it works best for small tanks as you referenced your nano tank only gets weekly water changes so it must be receiving everything it needs via that method. Also of course we have not included Fowler in the discussion but that is a different environment to some degree. I really think lightly coral stocked versus heavy coral stocking plays a key role also determining needs of the tank.

Do I need to dose minor and trace elements?​

The goal in a reef tank is to achieve the most stable conditions possible which means holding constant levels of all the elements like what is found in natural seawater. As corals grow, they primarily uptake calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium which are the major elements, the most important elements you will need to dose.

Minor and trace elements are also used by corals but at much slower rates and will only require dosing in medium to heavy demand aquariums. Most reef tanks can sustain the necessary trace elements via a weekly water change for the first 12 months. As your tank matures, there are minor and trace element solutions that can be integrated into your regular dosing routine.

 

[Hooz]

This is also from the BRS website and videos. I guess they contradict themselves a lot to. As I indicated in my post my first year was weekly water changes.

Do I need to dose minor and trace elements?​

The goal in a reef tank is to achieve the most stable conditions possible which means holding constant levels of all the elements like what is found in natural seawater. As corals grow, they primarily uptake calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium which are the major elements, the most important elements you will need to dose.

Minor and trace elements are also used by corals but at much slower rates and will only require dosing in medium to heavy demand aquariums. Most reef tanks can sustain the necessary trace elements via a weekly water change for the first 12 months. As your tank matures, there are minor and trace element solutions that can be integrated into your regular dosing routine.

It's not a contradiction at all.

New tanks full of small frags have exponentially lower demand for trace elements, hence, do water changes and don't worry about them. They're not saying traces aren't used. They're saying they're used at such a low rate that augmenting them is not a concern.

Once those frags are growing and gaining size, demand goes up, dose traces. Simple.

Even the companies that recommend adding extra trace elements to their 2-part solutions (BRS and TM with their A/K elements) have "tiered" recommended amounts based on coral demands (low/medium/high demand). Companies that offer other trace element options (Red Sea with their 4-part or 7-part dosing solutions) tie the trace elements to tank demand (based on calcium consumption). So the more your tank uses, the more you dose, and that grows over time.

But, that being said... I'm not arguing the merits of dosing trace elements. I am simply stating that if you think water changes alone "replenish" the ones your tank uses, you're mistaken.

 

[Lavey29]

It's not a contradiction at all.

New tanks full of small frags have exponentially lower demand for trace elements, hence, do water changes and don't worry about them. They're not saying traces aren't used. They're saying they're used at such a low rate that augmenting them is not a concern.

Once those frags are growing and gaining size, demand goes up, dose traces. Simple.

Even the companies that recommend adding extra trace elements to their 2-part solutions (BRS and TM with their A/K elements) have "tiered" recommended amounts based on coral demands (low/medium/high demand). Companies that offer other trace element options (Red Sea with their 4-part or 7-part dosing solutions) tie the trace elements to tank demand (based on calcium consumption). So the more your tank uses, the more you dose, and that grows over time.

But, that being said... I'm not arguing the merits of dosing trace elements. I am simply stating that if you think water changes alone "replenish" the ones your tank uses, you're mistaken.

Exactly, thanks for explaining it well. All tanks are unique and what might work for some may not work for the next . Newer tanks do fine with weekly water changes which suffice to keep everything in balance. As tanks mature and become heavily stocked with demanding corals then dosing additives will be required. You mention that your tank is doing fine with only weekly water changes yet you express your opinion here that weekly water changes are insufficient so guess we will leave it there then. My first year weekly water changes covered everything. As my tank matured and became heavily stocked and I went to monthly water changes then I had do dose trace once a week to keep up along with alk and cal daily. a lot of reefers never dose trace elements but are diligent about their weekly water changes yet their tanks run fine with healthy and vibrant corals. Wonder why that is huh? They should have essentially no trace elements according to your theory yet the tank is fine. I think we can agree that trace elements play a smaller role in the reef tank versus the big 3,

 

[Hooz]

Exactly, thanks for explaining it well. All tanks are unique and what might work for some may not work for the next . Newer tanks do fine with weekly water changes which suffice to keep everything in balance. As tanks mature and become heavily stocked with demanding corals then dosing additives will be required. You mention that your tank is doing fine with only weekly water changes yet you express your opinion here that weekly water changes are insufficient so guess we will leave it there then. My first year weekly water changes covered everything. As my tank matured and became heavily stocked and I went to monthly water changes then I had do dose trace once a week to keep up along with alk and cal daily. a lot of reefers never dose trace elements but are diligent about their weekly water changes yet their tanks run fine with healthy and vibrant corals. Wonder why that is huh? They should have essentially no trace elements according to your theory yet the tank is fine. I think we can agree that trace elements play a smaller role in the reef tank versus the big 3,

ONE of my tanks (anemones only) is fine using nothing but weekly water changes. My other tanks (various "reef" tanks with different types of coral) are not. I was merely pointing out that every tank is different, and some might be fine without any "special" additives and water changes only. Not because water changes replenish traces, only because demand is so low that it doesn't really matter.

So far I've been having great luck using All for Reef in those other tanks. All for Reef DOES contain "extra" trace elements beyond what is provided by doing water changes. I'm in the process of setting up a new tank where I'll be using a hybrid BRS/TM/RHF dosing solution, and I'll be supplementing trace elements in that as well.

 

[Lavey29]

ONE of my tanks (anemones only) is fine using nothing but weekly water changes. My other tanks (various "reef" tanks with different types of coral) are not. I was merely pointing out that every tank is different, and some might be fine without any "special" additives and water changes only. Not because water changes replenish traces, only because demand is so low that it doesn't really matter.

So far I've been having great luck using All for Reef in those other tanks. All for Reef DOES contain "extra" trace elements beyond what is provided by doing water changes. I'm in the process of setting up a new tank where I'll be using a hybrid BRS/TM/RHF dosing solution, and I'll be supplementing trace elements in that as well.

Do you send in regular ICP tests to check everything?

 

[Hooz]

Do you send in regular ICP tests to check everything?

Two of my tanks I did quarterly (every 3 months) for a year when I started with All for Reef, just to see how it was going to work for me. I've done a few more since then, but I got a pretty good understanding of how my tanks worked, and TM adjusted the formula of AFR a bit which worked out perfectly for me. I still do occaisional ICP, but only when I feel like something isn't quite right.

 

[areefer01]

Two of my tanks I did quarterly (every 3 months) for a year when I started with All for Reef, just to see how it was going to work for me. I've done a few more since then, but I got a pretty good understanding of how my tanks worked, and TM adjusted the formula of AFR a bit which worked out perfectly for me. I still do occaisional ICP, but only when I feel like something isn't quite right.

Adjusted? The only change that we are aware of is they bumped up iodine a bit. Maybe iron - I would have to find the post here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Adjusted? The only change that we are aware of is they bumped up iodine a bit. Maybe iron - I would have to find the post here.

Hans-Werner said they adjusted the alk portion of it.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tropic-marin-all-for-reef.1023812/page-2#post-12105340

 

[Pod_01]

Hans-Werner said they adjusted the alk portion of it.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tropic-marin-all-for-reef.1023812/page-2#post-12105340

And they also doubled the Iodine.
I hope the link works, it is post 24 in that discussion.

Post in thread 'All-For-Reef: Enough iodine?'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/all-for-reef-enough-iodine.861372/post-9574472

 

[areefer01]

Hans-Werner said they adjusted the alk portion of it.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tropic-marin-all-for-reef.1023812/page-2#post-12105340

Thanks. I remember seeing that but thought it was a label issue. I was thinking of post #24 in which they mentioned increasing iodine.

Thanks again. Hope your day is well.

All-For-Reef: Enough iodine?

Yes, the nano probably gets ~20% vs 10% in the main tank. Thanks! I have to say, I would have expected an even bigger differenc. 20 % vs. 10 % is still "in proportion" in my eyes, since nanos also have much higher surface-volume ratios. They have more surface in proportion to volume than bigger...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[areefer01]

And they also doubled the Iodine.
I hope the link works, it is post 24 in that discussion.

Post in thread 'All-For-Reef: Enough iodine?'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/all-for-reef-enough-iodine.861372/post-9574472

Thanks - we both had the same idea.

 

[Hooz]

Adjusted? The only change that we are aware of is they bumped up iodine a bit. Maybe iron - I would have to find the post here.

Yes. They doubled the A elements, so more than just the iodine.

In my ICP tests back then the few elements I was consistently low in... were iodine and a few other A elements.

I got the new recipe from Hans (in the thread linked above) and adjusted the AFR I had at the time. Did a few more ICP tests and everything looked good with the new amounts.

 

[Alazo1]

Food for thought. On one of Frag Garages talks with Christoph from Oceamo, Christoph states that using GFO will deplete a system of a lot of trace elements. With that said gfo has been used on many successful tanks for decades.


At about the 1 hour and 53 minute mark.

 

[Lavey29]

Food for thought. On one of Frag Garages talks with Christoph from Oceamo, Christoph states that using GFO will deplete a system of a lot of trace elements. With that said gfo has been used on many successful tanks for decades.


At about the 1 hour and 53 minute mark.

Carbon can as well

 

[Acroguy]

Water changes and feeding your fish a variety of foods is plenty to replenish any trace elements you need.. ask Randy or crt…

Not at all. In a lps/soft tank maybe. In sps tank good luck in the long term.

 

[forneyjohn19]

For what it’s worth, I didn’t use to dose trace elements. Then, I started dosing Tropic Marin K+ and A- elements, and some of my corals took on new coloration (closer to what the pictures looked like on WWC’s website) that I hadn’t been able to achieve prior to dosing. (And no, I didn’t take pictures of before and after and heavily regret not documenting the changes).

I am a believer, and will always dose trace elements going forward. Are they required for coral growth, probably not. But, if you want to maximize your coral health you need to supply trace elements.

I think about it like this: I can feed a child fast food for every meal. They will survive, grow, and develop. But, everyone would agree the child would be healthier eating fruits and vegetables.