1 year ICP results ALL FOR REEF

[allenk4]

Well my display is 50 gals my sump is 20. The sump is half full so 60 gals, minus displacement of rocks and pumps I’d say it’s 50 gals of water. That’s what I put as system volume.

It sounds like you are following the directions I am familiar with.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

- I linked to information that explains PVC pipe used for carrying water, does NOT leach Zinc into the water it caries

I don't agree with either your recounting of history nor your assessment of what you posted.

But for the record, zinc is widely used and approved for PVC stabilization even in drinking water pipe applications. it is used instead of others because the leached zinc is less toxic than other materials that might be used.

News - The Application Of Pvc Heat Stabilizer For Pvc Pipes

PVC heat stabilizers play a vital role in ensuring the performance and durability of PVC pipes. These stabilizers are additives used to protect PVC materials from degradation caused by exposure to heat, light and oxygen. In this article, we will explore the application of PVC heat stabilizers in ...

www.pvcstabilizer.com

Calcium-based stabilizers, such as calcium stearate and calcium zinc stabilizers, are non-toxic alternatives to lead-based stabilizers and are commonly used in the production of PVC pipes for drinking water and food packaging. These stabilizers have good thermal stability and weather resistance, making them suitable for outdoor applications.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

at what range would you take action? If at any point?

If the tank was not suffering in a visible way, it would be a high hurdle for me to do something about elevated zinc except be sure there were no metal parts in or near the water. That hurdle would likely be over 30 ug/L.

At 20 ug/L and a tank visibly suffering, I'd look for metal parts and possibly use a metal binder such as metasorb or cuprisorb. Whether it is the zinc or something else that maybe even came along with the zinc (such as from a galvanized metal part somewhere), the metal binder might help.

 

[805reeftank]

If the tank was not suffering in a visible way, it would be a high hurdle for me to do something about elevated zinc except be sure there were no metal parts in or near the water. That hurdle would likely be over 30 ug/L.

At 20 ug/L and a tank visibly suffering, I'd look for metal parts and possibly use a metal binder such as metasorb or cuprisorb. Whether it is the zinc or something else that maybe even came along with the zinc (such as from a galvanized metal part somewhere), the metal binder might help.

Thank I’ll keep an eye on it. As far as visual ques, I believe Coral dullness is one of the effects of high zinc? Anything else?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank I’ll keep an eye on it. As far as visual ques, I believe Coral dullness is one of the effects of high zinc? Anything else?

Who claims that?

I'd be highly skeptical of such assertions without some sort of evidence. There's all kinds of stuff that just gets repeated and repeated around the internet about chemical effects that does not seem to have a clear basis.

Here's a place with actual data discussed:

Effects of zinc supplementation on growth and colouration of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

Zinc levels in artificial seawater are often unnaturally elevated, and thus potentially toxic to aquacultured corals. However, our knowledge of how zinc affects corals is still limited. We tested the effects of zinc supplementation (0, 1, 10 and 100 µg L–1) on health, growth, NDVI (a proxy for...

peerj.com

Zinc levels in artificial seawater are often unnaturally elevated, and thus potentially toxic to aquacultured corals. However, our knowledge of how zinc affects corals is still limited. We tested the effects of zinc supplementation (0, 1, 10 and 100 µg L–1) on health, growth, NDVI (a proxy for chlorophyll a) and overall colouration of the stony coral Stylophora pistillata. After two weeks, no signs of necrosis were observed in any of the treatments. However, at 100 µg L–1, we detected a considerable ~62% growth reduction compared to zinc levels of 0 to 10 µg L–1. In addition, NDVI was significantly reduced by ~36% at 100 µg L–1 zinc, indicating loss of chlorophyll a. Zinc did not affect coral colouration in general, although reflection intensity increased markedly at 100 µg L–1, most likely due to a loss of chlorophyll a. In conclusion, the No Observed Effect Concentration (NOEC) after a two–week zinc exposure was 10 µg L–1 for S. pistillata.

 

[805reeftank]

Who claims that?

I'd be highly skeptical of such assertions without some sort of evidence. There's all kinds of stuff that just gets repeated and repeated around the internet about chemical effects that does not seem to have a clear basis.

Here's a place with actual data discussed:

Effects of zinc supplementation on growth and colouration of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

Zinc levels in artificial seawater are often unnaturally elevated, and thus potentially toxic to aquacultured corals. However, our knowledge of how zinc affects corals is still limited. We tested the effects of zinc supplementation (0, 1, 10 and 100 µg L–1) on health, growth, NDVI (a proxy for...

peerj.com

Zinc levels in artificial seawater are often unnaturally elevated, and thus potentially toxic to aquacultured corals. However, our knowledge of how zinc affects corals is still limited. We tested the effects of zinc supplementation (0, 1, 10 and 100 µg L–1) on health, growth, NDVI (a proxy for chlorophyll a) and overall colouration of the stony coral Stylophora pistillata. After two weeks, no signs of necrosis were observed in any of the treatments. However, at 100 µg L–1, we detected a considerable ~62% growth reduction compared to zinc levels of 0 to 10 µg L–1. In addition, NDVI was significantly reduced by ~36% at 100 µg L–1 zinc, indicating loss of chlorophyll a. Zinc did not affect coral colouration in general, although reflection intensity increased markedly at 100 µg L–1, most likely due to a loss of chlorophyll a. In conclusion, the No Observed Effect Concentration (NOEC) after a two–week zinc exposure was 10 µg L–1 for S. pistillata.

According to Ati, I didn’t know I could click on the warnings but that’s what they listed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Unless the dullness referred to is what one sees with any sort of suffering coral that is less expanded and not thriving, I would not focus on that. The other things (reduced growth, necrosis, death) are obvious issues for any sort of toxic experience.

 

[eggie]

Thank I’ll keep an eye on it. As far as visual ques, I believe Coral dullness is one of the effects of high zinc? Anything else?

I haven't seen color dullness with zinc levels of 40 ug/l. But Im not that high either, I think when there's stability corals are less likely to show sign of strees. Iv seen Dull and darker colors with high iodide when I was using KZ Flatworm Stop

 

[rishma]

My tank and RODI Zn levels are similar to the OPs. I would be hard pressed to tie any future issues to a single element/parameter except in the extreme. I really don’t buy the guidance provided by ICP companies or those selling trace elements. We just don’t know…

 

[805reeftank]

My tank and RODI Zn levels are similar to the OPs. I would be hard pressed to tie any future issues to a single element/parameter except in the extreme. I really don’t buy the guidance provided by ICP companies or those selling trace elements. We just don’t know…

I follow that logic. My tank is good I don’t have any problems with growth, color, or algae it was to get a baseline. Now I do believe some of these traces can be beneficial so I started isol8 mt to see if I notice a difference. And the reason I picked that one was because of ease of use and price. I’m not going to do some convoluted regimen that requires hand and daily dosing that expensive or requires additional equipment not my style of reefing. I don’t even have a controller on my tank. It’s a bare bones set up light, flow, filter socks, active carbon, heater, and skimmer.

 

[rishma]

I follow that logic. My tank is good I don’t have any problems with growth, color, or algae it was to get a baseline. Now I do believe some of these traces can be beneficial so I started isol8 mt to see if I notice a difference. And the reason I picked that one was because of ease of use. I’m not going to do some convoluted regimen that requires hand and daily dosing not my style of reefing. I don’t even have a controller on my tank. It’s a bare bones set up light, flow, filter socks, active carbon, and skimmer.

I agree your observation of the tank and corals will be the best measure of the impact of the trace dosing. It’s great you are starting with a healthy tank. Looking forward to your observations.

 

[allenk4]

I don't agree with either your recounting of history nor your assessment of what you posted.

But for the record, zinc is widely used and approved for PVC stabilization even in drinking water pipe applications. it is used instead of others because the leached zinc is less toxic than other materials that might be used.

News - The Application Of Pvc Heat Stabilizer For Pvc Pipes

PVC heat stabilizers play a vital role in ensuring the performance and durability of PVC pipes. These stabilizers are additives used to protect PVC materials from degradation caused by exposure to heat, light and oxygen. In this article, we will explore the application of PVC heat stabilizers in ...

www.pvcstabilizer.com

Calcium-based stabilizers, such as calcium stearate and calcium zinc stabilizers, are non-toxic alternatives to lead-based stabilizers and are commonly used in the production of PVC pipes for drinking water and food packaging. These stabilizers have good thermal stability and weather resistance, making them suitable for outdoor applications.

I understand your desire to be “right”, I used to be that way too.

The question remains, whether the PVC components of the OP’s RODI are responsible for Zinc in the water he was submitting for analysis.

One hypothesis presented is that the Zinc originated from PVC and is LEECHING into the water during the RODI process.

The information you presented on Pharmaceutical Packaging is irrelevant to this Reefers issue.

The information you prevented today says nothing about Zinc LEECHING into the water the pipe is carrying. In fact the factors mentioned in the document provided are heat and sunlight, neither of which are applicable in a reef system.

The RODI unit and filters the OP is using are the most popular units. If they were the cause, this issue should be widespread. I have seen little evidence that that is the case, but I am open to any objective evidence presented.

I understand it is sometimes difficult to let go of an inter web talking point, but until I see information that documents LEECHING of Zinc from PVC pipe used in reef aquarium construction, I will considered this settled.

Glad the OP is having success.

 

[rishma]

I understand your desire to be “right”, I used to be that way too.

The question remains, whether the PVC components of the OP’s RODI are responsible for Zinc in the water he was submitting for analysis.

One hypothesis presented is that the Zinc originated from PVC and is LEECHING into the water during the RODI process.

The information you presented on Pharmaceutical Packaging is irrelevant to this Reefers issue.

The information you prevented today says nothing about Zinc LEECHING into the water the pipe is carrying. In fact the factors mentioned in the document provided are heat and sunlight, neither of which are applicable in a reef system.

The RODI unit and filters the OP is using are the most popular units. If they were the cause, this issue should be widespread. I have seen little evidence that that is the case, but I am open to any objective evidence presented.

I understand it is sometimes difficult to let go of an inter web talking point, but until I see information that documents LEECHING of Zinc from PVC pipe used in reef aquarium construction, I will considered this settled.

Glad the OP is having success.

The man needs no defense from the likes of me, but your condescension is inappropriate. @Randy Holmes-Farley does this community and the hobby great service. He is fine with disagreement (he tolerates mine with patience) but certainly deserves more respect than you are displaying. I suggest you check yourself.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The information you presented on Pharmaceutical Packaging is irrelevant to this Reefers issue.

You are new enough here to perhaps not know that I will NEVER allow misinformation to persist in my subforum. Never. That is a benefit of this forum over nearly every other forum. Even if I originally post some misinformation, I will correct it, and have done so in the past.

You posted misinformation. Own it and move on. Or don't own it and move on. Or post actual info that supports your idea.

You obviously did not even read the article I linked about measured zinc leaching from PVC into an aqueous solution at seawater pH. Your criticism of it outs you.

The authors use the term packaging in a very different way than you seem to use it (as a belittling point).

The "packaging" is an IV infusion bag that is releasing zinc into the IV infusion fluid. It's not some plastic wrapper of a pill bottle.

Your posts have been uniquely unuseful and misleading. Your reliance on an AI generated search to say you posted info that says zinc does not leach is quite simply an absurd misuse of a search tool. Simple changing of the the wording of the question gives an entirely different answer. Don't waste your life relying on an AI to understand science for you. They do not.

So, do I think zinc leaches from some brands of PVC materials into actual reef tanks? yes. Same for tin and calcium and perhaps other chemicals.

Do I think it explains the OP's zinc levels ? Maybe, maybe not. It's one starting point for consideration. Maybe it is the tank source and not the RO/DI source. Or maybe the RO/DI source and not the tank source. Or maybe it is neither.

 

[allenk4]

Tank just turned 1 year old it is a 50gal mixed reef. I do weekly water changes 10-15% with Redsea blue bucket. I’ve only dosed all for reef from the beginning. The only adjustment I’ve made was to the potassium it was in the 350 range and brought it up to 410-420 with a salifert test before my ICP test. Other then that I have not dosed any other trace elements. This water sample was taken before my 50ml dose in the morning. I dose once per day before lights come on

Couple of observations my salinity was low. I’ve been using the BRS calibration fluid and it seems to be off. I made Randy’s solution and yup it read 1.029 on my refractometer that’s calibrated to 1.026 so this solves my salinity for the next ICP. I’ll be bringing up my salinity with evaporation.

Next is the zinc I don’t know what to do about it? It’s coming from my RODI unit I have no metal or float valves on my unit I fill (2) 5 gal plastic jugs and use those to hold my water for top off and water changes. Per the ICP it’s suggesting
Volume of mixed bed resin filter may not be sufficient (1 liter volume of mixed bed resin should be used per 120 liters of daily output of the osmosis system) not entirely

As long as it’s not elevated to a concerning level or it’s just detectable I’m good with it. One of the main reasons I decided to try it is it can be diluted in RO water and dosed with a single pump. All the elements in MT are widely believed to be beneficial so why not.

805….I thought you might find this interesting. The presenter discusses a wife range of interesting topics and at 51:45 he addresses inaccuracies in ICP testing. The study he referenced saw an average error showing Zinc levels reported by the ICP as 175% higher than the known sample that was submitted.



He also mentions that the study director indicates testing a water sample that’s older than 12 hours can have significant impact on the results. Flying 50ml of water to Germany with changes along the way in temperature, atmospheric pressure and age of the sample can all affect the result.

Glad you are having success. Interested to see how it plays out

K

 

[allenk4]

The man needs no defense from the likes of me, but your condescension is inappropriate. @Randy Holmes-Farley does this community and the hobby great service. He is fine with disagreement (he tolerates mine with patience) but certainly deserves more respect than you are displaying. I suggest you check yourself.

My intention is not to disrespect anyone.

I agree Randy has contributed much and I value his input.

On this issue I have never stated my own opinion, only presented the information of others who are more knowledgeable on the subject than any of us, in an attempt to assist the OP. Randy has done the same.

We disagree and that’s OK

 

[805reeftank]

805….I thought you might find this interesting. The presenter discusses a wife range of interesting topics and at 51:45 he addresses inaccuracies in ICP testing. The study he referenced saw an average error showing Zinc levels reported by the ICP as 175% higher than the known sample that was submitted.



He also mentions that the study director indicates testing a water sample that’s older than 12 hours can have significant impact on the results. Flying 50ml of water to Germany with changes along the way in temperature, atmospheric pressure and age of the sample can all affect the result.

Glad you are having success. Interested to see how it plays out

K

I’ll take a look at the video. In my mind it makes sense that the sample could degrade over time. It did take 8 days to get there and 10 days till I got the results. We’ll see if there’s consistency when I send another sample. I’ll take the RODI sample from the line instead of the jug. Maybe the jugs is leaching? But we’ll see if the tank zinc is the same or higher shouldn’t be lower that’s for sure.

 

[Pod_01]

In my mind it makes sense that the sample could degrade over time.

ICP is measuring elements, I don’t think you can degrade zinc, copper etc… in the sample during transport. Perhaps the elements may bind to the container wall…

The non element/ICP measurements like PO4, NO3, Alk they may potentially degrade.

 

[allenk4]

ICP is measuring elements, I don’t think you can degrade zinc, copper etc… in the sample during transport. Perhaps the elements may bind to the container wall…

The non element/ICP measurements like PO4, NO3, Alk they may potentially degrade.

In the video the presenter mentions that sample contents may precipitate out of the solution.

No idea which elements of any would be affected by this, much less Zinc specifically.

 

[805reeftank]

In the video the presenter mentions that sample contents may precipitate out of the solution.

No idea which elements of any would be affected by this, much less Zinc specifically.

actually now that I’m looking back my alk, cal, mag, no3, po4, and k all matched my test numbers so I doubt anything else changed from the sample but who knows.