Alkalinity and calcium dissapearing

[Mattc123]

Hi all. Recently I got my hands on a Trident and it has confirmed that something is sucking the life out of my alkalinity and calcium. Before receiving the trident through my normal tests I determined that my alkalinity and calcium was being used up by something of which I have no idea. I have one single small head of GSP and my alkalinity drops by almost 1 per day without dosing and my calcium also drops like a rock. Because of this I dose about 40ml of B Ionic per day and that seems to maintain all of my levels including my pH. I do have a pretty bad CO2 issue in the room the tank is in which I resolve with a CO2 scrubber but this is the only thing I can suspect that's bringing things down. I'll attach pics of my Apex readings and just ignore the ORP reading as I think my probe went caput on me a few days ago. The small dip from the 7th-8th is because the dos pump ran dry but then I fixed it.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Something is not right. If all you have is GSP, which is a softy and consumes virtually no alk and calc, you've got me scratching my head.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate, plus organisms that you may not think of such as certain worms, snails, bivalves, etc, all use alk and calcium. Increasing nitrate depletes alkalinity. 2.3 dKH for each 50 ppm of nitrate increase.

Coralline algae can be a big user.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

On that graph, however, the calcium decline is test error. No tank can use that much calcium (50 ppm in 2 days) unless you are massively dosing alkalinity.

 

[Mattc123]

On that graph, however, the calcium decline is test error. No tank can use that much calcium (50 ppm in 2 days) unless you are massively dosing alkalinity.

I believe what happened there was that my calcium line ran dry but not my alkalinity. But it's no so far off from the normal disappearance of calcium I normally experience. I am dosing 45ml of b-ionic a day (not 40 like I had thought earlier) and it had been pumping just calcium for about a day. I have almost no stock in this tank as well as I have been waiting for it to mature with what I have. It's 100 gallons and I'd say there's about two dozen assorted snails and hermits, along with a pistol shrimp and fire shrimp, two clowns, and a watchman goby. Do you think that's enough to cause such a drop? I also don't really see anything but small splotches here and there of purple coralline.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I believe what happened there was that my calcium line ran dry but not my alkalinity. But it's no so far off from the normal disappearance of calcium I normally experience. I am dosing 45ml of b-ionic a day (not 40 like I had thought earlier) and it had been pumping just calcium for about a day. I have almost no stock in this tank as well as I have been waiting for it to mature with what I have. It's 100 gallons and I'd say there's about two dozen assorted snails and hermits, along with a pistol shrimp and fire shrimp, two clowns, and a watchman goby. Do you think that's enough to cause such a drop? I also don't really see anything but small splotches here and there of purple coralline.

45 mL per day of B-ionic is about 7 ppm calcium in 100 gallons.

My guess the bulk of the alk/calcium demand is abiotic precipitation on sand, rocks, and pumps, unless nitrate is rising rapidly.

 

[tzabor10]

Trident testing is not the only way to look at your system. It can indicate problems but you should always check with other testing. I was sucked into believing everything that was coming through the app. Two part definitely can precipitate out easily. Try Kalkwasser for better results. Then fine tune with two part. The CO2 scrubber is its own hassle as well.

 

[Mattc123]

Trident testing is not the only way to look at your system. It can indicate problems but you should always check with other testing. I was sucked into believing everything that was coming through the app. Two part definitely can precipitate out easily. Try Kalkwasser for better results. Then fine tune with two part. The CO2 scrubber is its own hassle as well.

I confirmed the trident results with a Hanna multichecker, red sea test kits, and salifert test kits and they all give me similar results. The Hanna however is practically useless when it comes to calcium because of it's sensitivity. I may have to try that with kalk and then doing the fine tuning with the b-ionic. And trust me I know lol the CO2 scrubber is a pain for me and I don't even have the recirculating lid yet.

 

[KrisReef]

Without the presences of delicate coral perhaps dosing alk and CA heavily for a trial period would allow abiotic uses to be exhausted so that normal dosing could occur.

Curious, do you have phosphate changes, (increase or decrease)/ and are you using new rock? I think Randy is likely correct (again) regarding abiotic chemistry in a new system.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

. Two part definitely can precipitate out easily. Try Kalkwasser for better results. Then fine tune with two part. The CO2 scrubber is its own hassle as well.

I can’t think of any reason for less precipitation using kalkwasser, unless the two part is being delivered too fast.

 

[Mattc123]

Without the presences of delicate coral perhaps dosing alk and CA heavily for a trial period would allow abiotic uses to be exhausted so that normal dosing could occur.

Curious, do you have phosphate changes, (increase or decrease)/ and are you using new rock? I think Randy is likely correct (again) regarding abiotic chemistry in a new system.

I was thinking that too, along with the fact that in general everything I'm doing now is a trial and for the better of my tank later on. My phosphate stays extremely steady at .01-.02 every single time I've tested. I am using mostly new rock but it'll be a year old in about a month, along with a few pieces of live rock from my lfs. My nitrate also swings from 0-2 quite a bit and lately I'm struggling to maintain any nitrate at all.

 

[Mattc123]

I can’t think of any reason for less precipitation using kalkwasser, unless the two part is being delivered too fast.

Would you still recommend this? Kalk in my ato and two part to maintain? I've been thinking about it and figured in the long run it would be less expensive but harder to get the doses right.

 

[Mattc123]

45 mL per day of B-ionic is about 7 ppm calcium in 100 gallons.

My guess the bulk of the alk/calcium demand is abiotic precipitation on sand, rocks, and pumps, unless nitrate is rising rapidly.

Sorry just saw this I missed it somehow! That really puts things in perspective. Will abiotic precipitation slow down at one point?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry just saw this I missed it somehow! That really puts things in perspective. Will abiotic precipitation slow down at one point?

One often has to break the cycle since freshly precipitated surfaces act as seed crystals for more precipitation.

This is my generic recommendation for precipitation issues (e.g., hardening sand):

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH.
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

 

[Mattc123]

One often has to break the cycle since freshly precipitated surfaces act as seed crystals for more precipitation.

This is my generic recommendation for precipitation issues (e.g., hardening sand):

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH.
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

I will try this thank you!

 

[Mattc123]

One often has to break the cycle since freshly precipitated surfaces act as seed crystals for more precipitation.

This is my generic recommendation for precipitation issues (e.g., hardening sand):

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH.
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

Should I continue to dose calcium without alkalinity?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Should I continue to dose calcium without alkalinity?

I wouldn't bother, but it's fine to do so if you want.

 

[Mattc123]

One often has to break the cycle since freshly precipitated surfaces act as seed crystals for more precipitation.

This is my generic recommendation for precipitation issues (e.g., hardening sand):

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH.
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

Just vacuumed my sand and it was so hard I nearly had to get a chisel! Haven't been dosing and I've been holding my pH at 8.0 since Sunday with my CO2 scrubber just because without it I'd probably start to lose livestock. Should I continue waiting?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just vacuumed my sand and it was so hard I nearly had to get a chisel! Haven't been dosing and I've been holding my pH at 8.0 since Sunday with my CO2 scrubber just because without it I'd probably start to lose livestock. Should I continue waiting?

Is the sand still there?

 

[Mattc123]

Is the sand still there?

Yes it is. I was able to break it up pretty well though