Help between refugium or turf scrubber for my setup

[VintageReefer]

Here's the thread;

Algae issues? Why dont more people use algae scrubbers?

I’ll have a go, lol. This documents that algal growth rates are nearly maxed out at natural seawater levels, presumably undetectable by us with our test kits. So lowering them but remaining still detectable would have no effect; if folks look hard enough they will probably find research that...

www.reef2reef.com

Show me the proof please.

Show me the concession

 

[mizimmer90]

The conclusion was that it's very "possible" that an ATS or fuge can influence (reduce) algae in the display tank.

The math shows that given a limiting nutrient situation (i.e. possibly a trace element like iron), a sufficiently powerful fuge/ATS can decrease display algae, even to zero. I make no claims as to a practical size or necessary lighting/flow, and leave it up to people experience for that part. Other factors like CUC and good maintenance will also tip the scales in favor of ATS/fuges.

 

[Garf]

Show me the concession

Algae issues? Why dont more people use algae scrubbers?

An ATS could definitely be a part of the solution. Hey jason! I bought your old scrubber from you years ago. Recently sold it when i moved and I switched to cheato, less work/maintenance for me. You still using a Floyd Turbo? That thing was awesome. I was just curious if scrubbers helped with...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[mizimmer90]

Algae issues? Why dont more people use algae scrubbers?

An ATS could definitely be a part of the solution. Hey jason! I bought your old scrubber from you years ago. Recently sold it when i moved and I switched to cheato, less work/maintenance for me. You still using a Floyd Turbo? That thing was awesome. I was just curious if scrubbers helped with...

www.reef2reef.com

I don't see any concession. Especially not any comments from you about incorrect assumptions in the model. Fanciful rewriting of history!!

Read all 38 pages of that thread and try and find where I say that *any* sized fuge/ATS will always prevent algae in the display tank. Was never said. You're trying to set up a straw man here! Lol

 

[Garf]

I don't see any concession. Especially not any comments from you about incorrect assumptions in the model. Fanciful rewriting of history!!

Read all 38 pages of that thread and try and find where I say that *any* sized fuge/ATS will always prevent algae in the display tank. Was never said. You're trying to set up a straw man here! Lol

It's certainly possible I imagined certain facets of the thread, that's why things are written down, lol. My issue is not with you at all. It's the claim that scrubbers stop algae growth in the display. According to your own model this only applies to growth that's 100 x the display volume, maybe 10 x, maybe 1/2? Then this tank is not fed, or supplied with nutrients in the form of traces? There is certainly not evidence I remember that indicates a few grammes of algae growth in a separate container can control algae in a display tank. I really am not gonna search through to find the post where you didn't realise scrubber growth was discarded, unless I imagined that bit (always possible, but I don't think so).

Cheers

 

[VintageReefer]

keeping scrubbers harvested more often yields stronger results than harvesting less often. You would think more algae in the scrubber = more nutrient consumption but it’s false! Young algae grows faster and consumes more nutrients. Discarding the algae removes the nutrients from the system completely and makes the scrubber more effective

 

[mizimmer90]

It's certainly possible I imagined certain facets of the thread, that's why things are written down, lol. My issue is not with you at all. It's the claim that scrubbers stop algae growth in the display. According to your own model this only applies to growth that's 100 x the display volume, maybe 10 x, maybe 1/2? Then this tank is not fed, or supplied with nutrients in the form of traces? There is certainly not evidence I remember that indicates a few grammes of algae growth in a separate container can control algae in a display tank. I really am not gonna search through to find the post where you didn't realise scrubber growth was discarded, unless I imagined that bit (always possible, but I don't think so).

Cheers

I would not read into the exact values since we'd need to know precise measures of relative algae growth rates for each region. The important parts of the model are the trends, i.e. that algae grown in one region can reduce the rate in another, which will have a predictable form.

As for pulling algae out, this was intentionally neglected in the model so that I could have an analytic solution, but it would actually make the model favor ATS/refugiums even more since you can keep growing without consideration of a volume cap.

 

[Garf]

I would not read into the exact values since we'd need to know precise measures of relative algae growth rates for each region. The important parts of the model are the trends, i.e. that algae grown in one region can reduce the rate in another, which will have a predictable form.

As for pulling algae out, this was intentionally neglected in the model so that I could have an analytic solution, but it would actually make the model favor ATS/refugiums even more since you can keep growing without consideration of a volume cap.

Here’s my old scrubber. I was easily able to set up algae growth anywhere in my system, even with this at fulll production;

howdy from the uk - day one - Page 11

thought i would chip in and let you comment on my effort so far. Backgroung of display- 5 x 2 x 2 with 240 ltr sump containing skimmer (massively inefficient), DSB in display (silica play sand), approx 100 kgs live rock. Most corals are 7 years old and all fish but 2 of the tangs, are of...

algaescrubber.net

 

[mizimmer90]

Here’s my old scrubber. I was easily able to set up algae growth anywhere in my system, even with this at fulll production;

howdy from the uk - day one - Page 11

thought i would chip in and let you comment on my effort so far. Backgroung of display- 5 x 2 x 2 with 240 ltr sump containing skimmer (massively inefficient), DSB in display (silica play sand), approx 100 kgs live rock. Most corals are 7 years old and all fish but 2 of the tangs, are of...

algaescrubber.net

I'm not the right person to help you with it, but the model would suggest that either you weren't in a nutrient limited environment or your scrubbers advantage was not sufficiently competitive (for a myriad of reasons).

 

[mizimmer90]

Also, I feel bad for us hijacking OPs thread to continue an older discussion!

Picture of my conch (and I'm sure everyone else reading this discussion lol)

 

[VintageReefer]

Here’s my old scrubber. I was easily able to set up algae growth anywhere in my system, even with this at fulll production;

howdy from the uk - day one - Page 11

thought i would chip in and let you comment on my effort so far. Backgroung of display- 5 x 2 x 2 with 240 ltr sump containing skimmer (massively inefficient), DSB in display (silica play sand), approx 100 kgs live rock. Most corals are 7 years old and all fish but 2 of the tangs, are of...

algaescrubber.net

All you are growing is slime algae which indicates your system is extremely nutrient dense. The slime algae prevents turf algae from growing.

Slime algae needs to be removed from the screen daily. Screen cleaned to remove any film. And repeat until the nutrients are lowered and slime is not forming, then turf algae can root and begin to grow.

Sounds to me like your scrubber was working but not sized large enough for your system. Might have needed two. Might have needed a change in design. Clearly it’s pulling nutrients but I don’t see any evidence your scrubber ever started growing anything but slime algae

 

[Garf]

All you are growing is slime algae which indicates your system is extremely nutrient dense. The slime algae prevents turf algae from growing.

Slime algae needs to be removed from the screen daily. Screen cleaned to remove any film. And repeat until the nutrients are lowered and slime is not forming, then turf algae can root and begin to grow.

Sounds to me like your scrubber was working but not sized large enough for your system. Might have needed two. Might have needed a change in design. Clearly it’s pulling nutrients but I don’t see any evidence your scrubber ever started growing anything but slime algae

Lol, read the thread, that's 99.99% GHA. About 800 grammes every 10 days when I added CO2 to it, 500 grammes every ten days without.

 

[VintageReefer]

Lol, read the thread, that's 99.99% GHA. About 800 grammes every 10 days when I added CO2 to it, 500 grammes every ten days without.

I read. Looks like slime algae in the pics. Slime. Hair. Doesn’t matter. It’s not the right algae so something was wrong with your design or methods regardless if you agree or not. Turf scrubbers are not intended to grow slime or hair algae. And you shouldn’t need to add co2. So. Soemthing was flawed in your design or methods

Or possibly you had TONS of phosphate bound up in sand and rock and needed a much larger unit.

 

[Garf]

I read. Looks like slime algae in the pics. Slime. Hair. Doesn’t matter. It’s not the right algae so something was wrong with your design or methods regardless if you agree or not. Turf scrubbers are not intended to grow slime or hair algae. And you shouldn’t need to add co2. So. Soemthing was flawed in your design or methods

Or possibly you had TONS of phosphate bound up in sand and rock and needed a much larger unit.

Indeed, not nutrient limited, that would be a mistake in my opinion. "Flawed" in my design? Lol.

 

[VintageReefer]

Indeed, not nutrient limited, that would be a mistake in my opinion. "Flawed" in my design? Lol.

 

[Peanut]

keeping scrubbers harvested more often yields stronger results than harvesting less often. You would think more algae in the scrubber = more nutrient consumption but it’s false! Young algae grows faster and consumes more nutrients. Discarding the algae removes the nutrients from the system completely and makes the scrubber more effective

How often do you harvest?

 

[VintageReefer]

How often do you harvest?

used to be every 7-10 days and currently I would say it’s more like once every 10-14 days. I could probably increase lighting and be a little more aggressive but my system is doing very well and I don’t want to mess with anything

 

[Garf]

 

[VintageReefer]

Great <irrelevant> video. It’s not a response to anything that’s been said, and the points made are talking about algae taking over natural reefs, not macro algae being grown in a refugium / scrubber as a means for nutrient control.

Sidestep and attempt to change topics or deflect all you want. Have someone else speak for you about something else. Not going to work here. I will say again what you refuse to accept. Your scrubber didn’t work for you because there was a flaw in your design, methods, or system. If you can’t look back, and realize that if you only grew hair algae then something was wrong, then you also have a flaw in your personality. Your scrubber grew algae very well, but not the right kind, or maybe not enough of it. Sorry it didn’t work out for you, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for others

 

[Garf]

Great <irrelevant> video. It’s not a response to anything that’s been said, and the points made are talking about algae taking over natural reefs, not macro algae being grown in a refugium / scrubber as a means for nutrient control.

Sidestep and attempt to change topics or deflect all you want. Have someone else speak for you about something else. Not going to work here. I will say again what you refuse to accept. Your scrubber didn’t work for you because there was a flaw in your design, methods, or system. If you can’t look back, and realize that if you only grew hair algae then something was wrong, then you also have a flaw in your personality. Your scrubber grew algae very well, but not the right kind, or maybe not enough of it. Sorry it didn’t work out for you, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for others

Turf scrubbers are designed to grow hair algae or turf, as mine did. Although folk can call their particular macro algae growing devices such as tiny refugiums "scrubbers" if they wish. My 500 grammes harvest removed about 1.5 to 2 ppm nitrate in a 500 litre tank per week. So that's just 0.5 ppm ammonia a week, as far as I can tell. Happy to be corrected though.

Edit - dry weight was 5% of wet weight, harvest 10 days (upto 14)