Ammonia is our Friend: thoughts needed

[Lasse]

@Hans-Werner What is the mechanisms of iron oxidation by nitrate? Is it a chemical or biochemical process? Does it happen in a reef aquarias aerobic water column or in the sediments because of bacterial NO3 reduction? Are your thoughts based on this article ?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Doctorgori]

don’t mean to barge in with a bunch of useless post but for those of us who barely finished High school could you college educated types translate/combine the nitrogen nomenclatures with the common name PLUS the chemical shorthand?

yes I know nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, and ammonium are all a atom or so different, but speaking for myself I have a hard time following around some of the brains.

Again appreciate the education but when 3 or 4 of you gray matter types discuss this stuff amongst yourselves please dumb it down so us with 2% or more Neanderthal dna can follow ….


BTW, this whole matter involves the interaction of coral tissue, symbiotic algae, bacteria and water chemistry all in one giant cluster of misunderstandings….

interesting topic and trying to keep up

 

[Lasse]

NH3 is unionised ammonia or ammonia gas. In British English and many other language also named ammoniac
NH4 (right nomenclature NH4+) is ionised ammonia or ammonia ion. In British English and many other language also named ammonium
NO2 (right nomenclature NO2-) is nitrite (ion)
NO3 (right nomenclature NO3-) is nitrate (ion)

I personally try to use NH3/NH4 as it express the complexity of what you name ammonia. The gas and the ion always exist as a pair with x% NH3/(100-x)% NH4 - x mainly depending on pH and temperature

Hope this help

Sincerely Lasse

 

[BeanAnimal]

thanks, I think the below statement partially explains why shipped corrals arriving in hot funky bags are bleached white within 24hrs …
I realize “correlation doesn’t equal causation” blah blah but this might be blatantly obvious

Possible, but oxygen levels may be at play as well.

 

[Hans-Werner]

@Hans-Werner What is the mechanisms of iron oxidation by nitrate? Is it a chemical or biochemical process? Does it happen in a reef aquarias aerobic water column or in the sediments because of bacterial NO3 reduction? Are your thoughts based on this article ?

Sincerely Lasse

There are many articles about iron oxidation by nitrate , for example this one. But I know also the article you have linked.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Hans-Werner What is the mechanisms of iron oxidation by nitrate? Is it a chemical or biochemical process? Does it happen in a reef aquarias aerobic water column or in the sediments because of bacterial NO3 reduction? Are your thoughts based on this article ?

Sincerely Lasse

I’m skeptical that this reaction is important in the water column. Yes, it happens in anaerobic environments, but ferrous iron and nitrate mixed together do not react at any significant rate, and ferrous nitrate is a stable solid.

I’m interested to see if Hans-Werner has evidence that it happens in the bulk water.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I’m skeptical that this reaction is important in the water column. Yes, it happens in anaerobic environments, but ferrous iron and nitrate mixed together do not react at any significant rate, and ferrous nitrate is a stable solid.

I’m interested to see if Hans-Werner has evidence that it happens in the bulk water.

I don't recall having said something like that.
I said:

The effect of nitrate is to keep iron oxidized and inhibit cyanobacterial growth in this way.

Iron will precipitate in high pH aerobic saltwater spontaneously and most likely the bulk of the precipitate will end up in the substrate finally. There it may be reduced back to Fe(II) and may find its way back into the water or the sediment surface or maybe it may stay in the sediment. But nitrate may inhibit the reduction of Fe(III) even in the sediment or the Fe(II) may be oxidized near the sediment surface.

Lasse talked about substrate bound cyanobacteria and microalgae.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't recall having said something like that.
I said:

Iron will precipitate in high pH aerobic saltwater spontaneously and most likely the bulk of the precipitate will end up in the substrate finally. There it may be reduced back to Fe(II) and may find its way back into the water or the sediment surface or maybe it may stay in the sediment. But nitrate may inhibit the reduction of Fe(III) even in the sediment or the Fe(II) may be oxidized near the sediment surface.

Lasse talked about substrate bound cyanobacteria and microalgae.

I wasnt saying you did claim it, but if it does not happen in the bulk water, then overall I’m skeptical about any oxidizing effect of nitrate being important to organisms that live in the bulk water, such as corals.

 

[Doctorgori]

I admit, I laughed briefly. But basically this is my approach, but most reefers dont want to grow zooxanthellae but they want to grow corals. The nutrient demands of corals, especially SPS are different form zooxanthellae and even different from the whole living part of the holobiont.

In SPS most of the trace elements and phosphate go into the skeleton and not in the soft parts. No matter if this is essential for calcification or just by accident, the nutrients go there and they must be replenished. This causes a significant shift in N : P ratio in demand.

To make a long story short, when I am writing, nutrient ratios are important for the supply and not for the standing stock, it is exactly this approach.

For the standing stock of nutrients, the uptake kinetics I have shown in one of my earlier posts are very important. Usually the optimum ratios of nutrient standing stocks are different from uptake ratios since uptake kinetics for different nutrients differ and even differ for the same nutrient at different concentrations.

The Redfield ratio is an uptake ratio, needed for growth/biomass and doesn't work for the standing stock of nutrients, not even for microalgae.

For a continued and constant nutrient supply nutrient ratios make sense because a dynamic equilibrium may form when dosing will meet consumption. If the supply and the consumption are equal, a dynamic equilibrium will form and stay at a constant low level. This is the same idea as your dedicated fertilizer idea.

appreciate dumbing that down, honestly appreciate the time that took

 

[Doctorgori]

deleted

 

[Hans-Werner]

I wasnt saying you did claim it, but if it does not happen in the bulk water, then overall I’m skeptical about any oxidizing effect of nitrate being important to organisms that live in the bulk water, such as corals.

I think it may be important in iron recycling.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’ve read this a few times also

What! I thought this was the whole point of a ATS or am I wrong

Weird I currently have insane Nitrate levels in all three tanks and all have a hard time growing algae, is the take away here some correlation with high nitrates and low iron ?

BTW while I love the correspondence of you smart people talking to each other but sometimes these cutting edge technical threads get rapped up in the techie “butt sniffing” … diatribe only amongst the name brands…..
probably just me but I’m getting indications here the small folks post being glossed over

I’m not sure how an ats reduces algae except by reduction of needed nutrients and trace elements. But if it is working by reducing ammonia, that seems counter productive if coral growth is desired.

That said, I’ve seen plenty of papers that show microalgae take up nitrate, and I’ve yet to see one that says they don’t.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With no fish, what is the source of ammonia?

If sources of ammonia are less than the consumption, yes, that tank set up plan is the hypothesis.

It means keeping sources low, and if they are too low, one can dose ammonia.

 

[Doctorgori]

NH3 is unionised ammonia or ammonia gas. In British English and many other language also named ammoniac
NH4 (right nomenclature NH4+) is ionised ammonia or ammonia ion. In British English and many other language also named ammonium
NO2 (right nomenclature NO2-) is nitrite (ion)
NO3 (right nomenclature NO3-) is nitrate (ion)

I personally try to use NH3/NH4 as it express the complexity of what you name ammonia. The gas and the ion always exist as a pair with x% NH3/(100-x)% NH4 - x mainly depending on pH and temperature

Hope this help

Sincerely Lasse

Appreciate the primer …. big thanks

 

[Doctorgori]

deleted

 

[GARRIGA]

Again appreciate the education but when 3 or 4 of you gray matter types discuss this stuff amongst yourselves please dumb it down so us with 2% or more Neanderthal dna can follow ….

Be nice if Google Translate did more than just languages. Often feel like a grounded plane at an airport and when articles are posted I go straight to conclusion or abstract and at all cost avoid the charts

 

[brandon429]

originally I thought this article might be aimed at classic challenges people perceive they have/may actually have/involving ammonia presence in a reef setting


but now it looks to be an article for techs, by techs, unless there's something useful that reefer Joe can utilize to make his tank better?

what's the intended scope of this article, is it to change or alter or streamline common reef procedures / needs from the public or is it to discuss concepts

Joe public is comprised of non-chemists with API who have been trained that detecting any free ammonia is bad/must be remedied, they spend lots of money fixing that need, so if the article shows a workaround to that issue it will be a nice read due to meeting a standout public issue

if concepts presented in the article help someone with a quarantine control ammonia better, or provides a better/more predictable way to cycle that will be a nice read.

regarding display reef tanks: those don't have ammonia issues after a certain number of days running so any article about dealing with ammonia in a display reef tank will be the most savory due to the implication they needed help at all unless the scope of the article is about dosing ammonia to reef tanks as N supplement- I participate in that too. if the article is written as a summary of the already giant ammonia dosing thread, that will not be the best use of the article in my opinion. address some major gap / challenge we keep seeing as thread topics for the last eight years, to me that's the best use of the potential direction for this article.

 

[Doctorgori]

Be nice if Google Translate did more than just languages. Often feel like a grounded plane at an airport and when articles are posted I go straight to conclusion or abstract and at all cost avoid the charts

agreed, and speaking of translations, is it me or has anyone else noticed @Lasse English skills are flat out polished … maybe we should let the Swedes teach us English

originally I thought this article might be aimed at classic challenges people perceive they have/may actually have/involving ammonia presence in a reef setting


but now it looks to be an article for techs, by techs, unless there's something useful that reefer Joe can utilize to make his tank better?

what's the intended scope of this article, is it to change or alter or streamline common reef procedures / needs from the public or is it to discuss concepts

Joe public is comprised of non-chemists with API who have been trained that detecting any free ammonia is bad/must be remedied

…… otoh sometimes it’s just worth it to eavesdrop on adult conversation; let the smart people talk …
but yeah I’m not contributing much either …
PTI

 

[Lasse]

is it me or has anyone else noticed @Lasse English skills are flat out polished … maybe we should let the Swedes teach us English

Thank you - but you haven't heard me speak English - my daughter usually says that I speak English with a slight Swedish accident...........

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

originally I thought this article might be aimed at classic challenges people perceive they have/may actually have/involving ammonia presence in a reef setting


but now it looks to be an article for techs, by techs, unless there's something useful that reefer Joe can utilize to make his tank better?

what's the intended scope of this article, is it to change or alter or streamline common reef procedures / needs from the public or is it to discuss concepts

Joe public is comprised of non-chemists with API who have been trained that detecting any free ammonia is bad/must be remedied, they spend lots of money fixing that need, so if the article shows a workaround to that issue it will be a nice read due to meeting a standout public issue

if concepts presented in the article help someone with a quarantine control ammonia better, or provides a better/more predictable way to cycle that will be a nice read.

regarding display reef tanks: those don't have ammonia issues, so any article about dealing with ammonia in a display reef tank will be the most savory due to the implication they needed help at all.

The scope and intent is being worked out here live based on feedback, but I certainly intend to include useful and actionable info, or at least what I consider useful.

These may include recommendations to dose ammonia instead of nitrate, to remove any media whose purpose is nitrification, to not ever worry about ammonia levels in reef aquaria of 0.5 ppm or less, that ammonia is not nearly as toxic as most think, that ammonia binders are not apparently useful, that constantly adding nitrifiers to established tanks may be undesirable, and that overall, reefers might be best deleting from their knowledge base the idea that nitrifiers are only “good” bacteria.

The concept of starting a tank without a thought for nitrifiers is just a way to drive home these points.