Avoiding the ugly stage?!?

[Tamberav]

Even if someone kept their light off for the first entire year, I would not say they skipped the ugly stage. I would say they just hid it. The fact they had to wait a year to add coral because of the light was off means they didn’t skip it.

The only way to mostly/entirely skip it is to transfer reef rock, either ocean live rock or established rock from a tank with living organisms on it like coralline and coral, worms, pods, sponges, etc.

Many still get a small ugly stage with ocean rock because of some die off.

 

[ReefGeezer]

About your article, I started with rock, don't know if it was dry or live as I got it with the tank from someone who had it in a tank before me. It is pretty white so probably dry. I had a question. If I were to get coralline algae from someone and add it to my tank, would this make coralline grow faster and potentially skip some of these steps?

It never hurts to scrape some off of someone else's rock, pick some snails with it on their shells, or add some live rubble rock. Every place that sells live rock sells it. A few lbs. goes a long way. However, it seems like things just need to mature a bit before coralline starts to spread... then you start cussing it.

 

[Exotrezy]

It won’t skip it no. It’s a good idea to add coralline but this usually comes in on snails and corals anyways. Coralline won’t take off till the tank stabilizes in a way we can’t easily test for. What I mean is your alk/ca/mg and nutrients can be within range but coralline still takes time. There is an entire bacterial biome happening in the tank we don’t fully understand or can test.

That biome and critters are already in place from ocean live rock hence that is pretty close to an instant tank/reef.

People have said that this coralline algae and nitrifying bacteria in a bottle actually has helped them and in most cases usually within a month they have started growing coralline, you think I should give it a try?

 

[Exotrezy]

It won’t skip it no. It’s a good idea to add coralline but this usually comes in on snails and corals anyways. Coralline won’t take off till the tank stabilizes in a way we can’t easily test for. What I mean is your alk/ca/mg and nutrients can be within range but coralline still takes time. There is an entire bacterial biome happening in the tank we don’t fully understand or can test.

That biome and critters are already in place from ocean live rock hence that is pretty close to an instant tank/reef.

By skip I mean like maybe don't go through every algae and maybe just go through an ugly stage of diatoms.

Even if someone kept their light off for the first entire year, I would not say they skipped the ugly stage. I would say they just hid it. The fact they had to wait a year to add coral because of the light was off means they didn’t skip it.
The only way to mostly/entirely skip it is to transfer reef rock, either ocean live rock or established rock from a tank with living organisms on it like coralline and coral, worms, pods, sponges, etc.

Many still get a small ugly stage with ocean rock because of some die off.

So if someone was to start off with ocean rock or established rock, would they be able to only have a small amount of algae like diatoms?

 

[Tamberav]

People have said that this coralline algae and nitrifying bacteria in a bottle actually has helped them and in most cases usually within a month they have started growing coralline, you think I should give it a try?

If you want to spend money on it, it can’t hurt. But I would not count on it helping either or that you would grow it in a month just because they did. It’s just bottled scrapings.

Green coralline algae usually comes before pink or purple.

Ugly phase is a catch all. Doesn’t mean you will get everything or some specific thing. The only thing everyone gets with dry rock is diatoms but doesn’t mean you will get more than that.

 

[Tamberav]

By skip I mean like maybe don't go through every algae and maybe just go through an ugly stage of diatoms.

So if someone was to start off with ocean rock or established rock, would they be able to only have a small amount of algae like diatoms?

Likely unless it came with some invasive pest species like bryopis.

 

[Exotrezy]

If you want to spend money on it, it can’t hurt. But I would not count on it helping either or that you would grow it in a month just because they did. It’s just bottled scrapings.

Green coralline algae usually comes before pink or purple.

Ugly phase is a catch all. Doesn’t mean you will get everything or some specific thing. The only thing everyone gets with dry rock is diatoms but doesn’t mean you will get more than that.

I understand, I just want to clarify everything and take precautions as I don’t want to have headaches and nightmares that people have dealing with cyano and dino. Any advice or steps I can take?

 

[Tamberav]

I understand, I just want to clarify everything and take precautions as I don’t want to have headaches and nightmares that people have dealing with cyano and dino. Any advice or steps I can take?

Monitor your nutrients, add diversity, seed with some good live rock or such.

Dino is annoying as heck but GhA and cyano are manageable so don’t freak out

If you spend any significant length of time in this hobby, you will probably deal with them at some point. Either you power through and learn from it and become a lifer or you quit the hobby like many new people do when things get tough.

Also realize that algae in small amounts is just a normal part of the tanks biome.

 

[Exotrezy]

Monitor your nutrients, add diversity, seed with some good live rock or such.

Dino is annoying as heck but GhA and cyano are manageable so don’t freak out

If you spend any significant length of time in this hobby, you will probably deal with them at some point. Either you power through and learn from it and become a lifer or you quit the hobby like many new people do when things get tough.

Also realize that algae in small amounts is just a normal part of the tanks biome

How would I seed with live rock?

 

[Tamberav]

How would I seed with live rock?

Add some to the tank or sump

 

[hatred_inc.]

I'm currently setting up a 40G breeder with a 20G sump, I have live sand and dry rock. I've seen copepods mentioned multiple times as a way to combat (and maybe even avoid) the ugly stage, plus I want to get a mandarin dragonet in the future and they need copepods. I was planning on getting a few jars from Algae Barn, but when I went to order I saw they had a deal, buy 4 jars of galaxy pods get 4 free. So I put 8 jars of galaxy pods into my aquarium shortly after it cycled.

Cycle started on 12/9, copepods added on 12/19, and two clownfish added on 12/21, and other than a very faint bacterial bloom the tank looks clean. I almost wonder if it's too clean, I'd like to get a watchmen goby but I'm a little worried there's nothing for it to sift through the sand.

Still too early to really tell if I'll be able to skip the ugly stage but I'm excited to see what happens. Patience is the key, along with very small changes at a time!

The trick I’ve always used is breeding as many “pods” as you can. Then making weekly additions to your DT. Also, rapid additions of macro and micro algae’s to support your bio diversity. This is also including additional “start” for the first 30 days. Also, don’t shy away from “helping” the nutrients find balance thru dosing.

A tank can never be overcrowded by micro fauna

 

[sixty_reefer]

great analysis-yea the point I was making is that even with all the husbandry, testing (as limited as testing will tell you hats going on with regards to the uglies) and diligence we put in, it’s almost impossible to avoid these algae’s. Some claim they avoided them but i’d be willing to bet they’re in the 2-5%.

Thanks, I believe the most underestimated pathway for new reefers is ammonia.
There is an invisible competition for this nutrient in all our tanks that’s the main nutrient that causes ugliness and pests to thrive.
We have 3 different types of organism using them autotroph, heterotroph and chemotrophs with autotrophs being the superior organism using it.
To try and start a efficient way of outcompeting we need to think of adding autotrophs early on, a fairly desirable one is usually coraline, film algae or a Refugium.

Not many folks realise that past the dark nitrogen cycle, ammonia is no longer managed by nitrifying bacteria.
In my opinion the main difference in good live rock and bad live rock is mainly the film algae that comes with it and not the bacteria itself possibly why live rock from the ocean is superior to live rock that is kept in a dark environment.
I’ve made a test a few years back were rock from the display with film algae was more effective at reducing ammonia in comparison to a rock from a dark sump without film algae @MnFish1 may remember that test.

 

[Exotrezy]

Add some to the tank or sump

Don't have a sump. I have rock already in my tank, if I were to add 1 live rock to my tank, would this work? Also, do refugiums also help? I don't have a sump but can probably diy or buy a HOB refugium.

 

[Tamberav]

Don't have a sump. I have rock already in my tank, if I were to add 1 live rock to my tank, would this work? Also, do refugiums also help? I don't have a sump but can probably diy or buy a HOB refugium.

It won’t fix diatoms and such on all your rock but a good piece will seed pods, brittle stars, bacteria, bristle worms, coralline, etc so that these animals may breed and spread to your other rocks in time.

Refugiums are a double edge sword. While they can bring in beneficial bacteria, critters, provide a safe space for pods, and compete for nutrients they can also lower nutrients to the point you get issues if not careful.

 

[Exotrezy]

It won’t fix diatoms and such on all your rock but a good piece will seed pods, brittle stars, bacteria, bristle worms, coralline, etc so that these animals may breed and spread to your other rocks in time.

Refugiums are a double edge sword. While they can bring in beneficial bacteria, critters, provide a safe space for pods, and compete for nutrients they can also lower nutrients to the point you get issues if not careful.

Well I am not saying to fix diatoms but other nuisance algae in the future. Diatoms will be cleaned up by my clean up crew but I am saying if I set up a refugium, will dinos, cyano, and etc be prevented in the future? I know that refugiums lower nutrients, which will help with certain types of algae but can't some algae use that to their advangtage like dinos? Also you mentioned that coralline can grow in the refugium, how does it transfer to the main tank?

 

[Lasse]

Well I am not saying to fix diatoms but other nuisance algae in the future. Diatoms will be cleaned up by my clean up crew but I am saying if I set up a refugium, will dinos, cyano, and etc be prevented in the future? I know that refugiums lower nutrients, which will help with certain types of algae but can't some algae use that to their advangtage like dinos? Also you mentioned that coralline can grow in the refugium, how does it transfer to the main tank?

Every aquarium is its own ecosystem. IMO - you can´t transfer a to do lists from one system to another not even from a year to another year in the same system. Its biological systems that is constructed in many small loops and if the pattern of one loop change - the whole system can change its response. It takes time to learn how your own system works and develop a feeling of which observations is important and which are of lesser importance - at least at a given moment. You must be clear that you already have dinos, cyanobacteria, diatoms and every other organism that can create a monoculture (bloom) in your aquaria if you do anything that will give a certain organism an advantage/disadvantage that break the balance between different organism.

You have to know your own system and judge by yourself if your animals (and plants) thrive or not. If everything works well - do not do any changes because someone (me or some other "expert") says that your parameters are off record. If your system not works well - yes there maybe is knowledge out in the cloud that you can transfer to your system.

Do not expect that your aquarium will look like a well-kept front yard from the beginning . it will be like a shader backyard with greater or lesser improvement opportunities during rather long time. After some time you learn things that make it easy to understand how to do improvement that create the dream you have.

You should also be aware of that most advises that sometimes hails over you like a spring snow/ice storm in Gothenburg (people from Seattle and Vancouver know what I´m talking about) its aiming to create a world top ten garden of coloured sticks (I think that they call them acropora)

You may be able to do that (if that is your wish) but these people that can show up these miracle aquariums during time is not people that start their journey a couple of years ago.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tamberav]

Well I am not saying to fix diatoms but other nuisance algae in the future. Diatoms will be cleaned up by my clean up crew but I am saying if I set up a refugium, will dinos, cyano, and etc be prevented in the future? I know that refugiums lower nutrients, which will help with certain types of algae but can't some algae use that to their advangtage like dinos? Also you mentioned that coralline can grow in the refugium, how does it transfer to the main tank?

Yes it can go either way. There is not list of do ABC and you will have X result.

Lasse is correct in that every tank is different and will react differently to the changes you do good and bad. What works for one person may not for the next and in time you learn to navigate the waters so to speak through trial and error and experience.

The best thing you can do now is to monitor nutrients and make sure they don’t hit true zero nor do they get super high, and add pods and micro brittles, small bristle worms and some snails with coralline on their shells or such and plod on

 

[Exotrezy]

Yes it can go either way. There is not list of do ABC and you will have X result.

Lasse is correct in that every tank is different and will react differently to the changes you do good and bad. What works for one person may not for the next and in time you learn to navigate the waters so to speak through trial and error and experience.

The best thing you can do now is to monitor nutrients and make sure they don’t hit true zero nor do they get super high, and add pods and micro brittles, small bristle worms and some snails with coralline on their shells or such and plod on

Ok, Thanks for help. So no refugium, atleast not now. Also, I don't think you responded earlier but I did say that my nitrates are at 10 ppm, is that high or is it good?

 

[Tamberav]

Ok, Thanks for help. So no refugium, atleast not now. Also, I don't think you responded earlier but I did say that my nitrates are at 10 ppm, is that high or is it good?

That’s good

 

[Exotrezy]

That’s good

Ok, perfect! Sorry for asking so many questions. Just to clarify 1 last thing, can I take coralline from a different person's tank and do something like this video?
It seems like it should work, I can try doing that and add this https://amzn.to/3ZZ4080