Bolus dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Putting the puzzle pieces of this entire conversation together - are you seeing anything at all novel?

Novel is quite a strong word, and since there have been plenty of folks over the years who dosed alk all at once in the am, and many of them likely used bicarbonate, so no, I have not seen anything novel.

I don’t really know what is being compared to bolus dosing or what is being assessed in such comparisons, but think it likely that higher alk and higher pH do lead to faster hard coral calcification. I simply think It unlikely that bolus dosing of bicarbonate is the best way to attain higher alk and it certainly isn’t the most efficient way to boost pH with an alk additive.

IMO, this is like an experiment with no control. In that sense it is impossible to interpret. I give a can of Coke to 37 cancer patients, and all are still alive at the end of the test. Do I publish this treatment?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Novel is quite a strong word, and since there have been plenty of folks over the years who dosed alk all at once in the am, and many of them likely used bicarbonate, so no, I have not seen anything novel.

I don’t really know what is being compared to bolus dosing or what is being assessed in such comparisons, but think it likely that higher alk and higher pH do lead to faster hard coral calcification. I simply cannot imagine that bolus dosing of bicarbonate is a good way to attain higher alk and it certainly isn’t the most efficient way to boost pH with an alk additive.

IMO, this is like an experiment with no control. In that sense it is impossible to interpret. I give a can of Coke to 37 cancer patients, and all are still alive at the end of the test. Do I publish this treatment?

Thank you very much for the response.

Your conclusions confirm (exactly) my feelings even if my comparative understanding of the actual chemistry is very basic.

I a not sure where creative marketing ends and charlatanism begins, but I am not a fan of misinformation being knowingly propagated, especially when it is labeled as science. I thank you for trying to help the rest of us understand what we are looking at.

 

[Superlightman]

Maybe this method works, maybe not, the problem there is not any proof to shows it.
The only thing we have are claims that some reefer from the fauna marin reefers club saw improvement. In the Groups in Germany, the only thing I saw was 2 beginner tanks with easy coral showing their tank and claiming it was better than before, that is all.
As Claude and Doug have Coralfarms they could easily have performed experiences same as BRS TV for proving it or at least show results from their experiences as they probably have tested it.

But zero, nothing at all , that is very strange considering all the money he put in the marketing and the video, protecting the name...why not show anything to back up the claims. If it works so well as they say it could be done easily .

 

[BeanAnimal]

But zero, nothing at all , that is very strange considering all the money he put in the marketing and the video, protecting the name...why not show anything to back up the claims. If it works so well as they say it could be done easily .

is it strange, or is it typical behavior from somebody engaged in fanciful (to put it kindly) marketing?

 

[Skep18]

I know they claim they're not selling anything and I didn't wanna go full cynical on this situation but I thought this slide was telling... Without evident proof, even BRS level, to me it seems they're selling product. I don't wanna hate on that. They're a for profit company. But users beware.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Hey if you wear our brand of shoes you can run faster…. Now we are not selling anything and this is just informational to help everyone…. But no other shoes allow you to do this except ours.

Anybody who says that they are not selling something is not paying attention or is making excuses for the obvious.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As a follow up, since FM is a Reef2Reef sponsor, I asked them in their forum here what I think it a very legit question, not about the bolus dosing and its claims, but a statement they make about the ingredients and claims of their Balling light Product.


On your web site you claim that your Balling Light product

". To further aid in restoring and maintaining chemical balance, we’ve developed and added an Organic Peptide Polymer to our Balling salts. This key ingredient helps remove excess elements from the water column."

https://www.faunamarin.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/FM_HTU_Balling_Light_System_EN.pdf

Can you clarify which "excess elements" you believe are being exported, and why you believe they are present in excess in aquariums that use your product?

Being an expert professional polymer chemist who works everyday with peptides, I do not need an explanation of what the material is and I'm not asking for the identity, just clarification of what this purported benefit is.

Thank you.

Question about Balling Light

On your web site you claim that your Balling Light product ". To further aid in restoring and maintaining chemical balance, we’ve developed and added an Organic Peptide Polymer to our Balling salts. This key ingredient helps remove excess elements from the water column."...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[BeanAnimal]

Randy - forgive my ignorance (as we have established, chemistry is not my strong suit).

Is it common to call a "peptide" (which to my understanding is a short chain of amino acids not long enough to be a "protein") a "polymer" even if it technically is an organic polymer?

Or is the word "polymer" being used in a situation like this (marketing) to impress the non chemistry minded people in the same manner as calling water "dihydrogen monoxide" on a list of important ingredients would be?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy - forgive my ignorance (as we have established, chemistry is not my strong suit).

Is it common to call a "peptide" (which to my understanding is a short chain of amino acids not long enough to be a "protein") a "polymer" even if it technically is an organic polymer?

Or is the word "polymer" being used in a situation like this (marketing) to impress the non chemistry minded people in the same manner as calling water "dihydrogen monoxide" on a list of important ingredients would be?

There’s some ambiguity in definitions and common usage, but yes, a peptide would be a polymer, although really short peptides like 2 or 3 amino acids would more commonly be called dimers or trimers.

 

[GARRIGA]

FWIW, algae take up a fair amount of bromide.

Off topic but fair assumption algae also takes up bromate produced from ozone in SW?

 

[carbl]

In a german forum somebody made a test with the KH Mix.

Translated:

"I bought the product yesterday and did a test today. I added 10g to 100ml of water (corresponds to 100g to 1 liter of water or 500g to 5 liters), followed the instructions, added the 10g to 70ml of osmosis water and then topped up to 100ml. Everything was weighed out beforehand with a calibrated scale.

The mixture was in the magnetic stirrer for a few hours. It also took a while for all the powder to dissolve completely. I used 0.5 ml of this mixture (with a 1 ml syringe) and tested it with one liter of seawater.

According to the manufacturer, 10ml KH solution increases the KH value by 0.5 per 100 liters (corresponds to 0.1ml solution per 1 liter of water). 0.5ml KH Mix solution should increase the KH by 2.5.


1 liter of seawater before adding:

pH 8.37

KH Salifert 7.7

KH Hanna Checker 7.8


After addition and forced mixing with magnetic stirrer (10 minutes)

pH 8.43

KH Salifert 9.6

KH Hanna Checker 9.7


KH difference: 1.9.

TARGET 2.50 to ACTUAL 1.90 is 24% less.

As a reminder: with pure bicarbonate you would get 3200KH/l, so the pH should not rise and the KH increase would also be less.

In the reef2reef forum someone mentioned the "old" Balling recipe of 81g bicarbonate and 19g carbonate, which corresponds to approx. 3700KH/L. That would be 26% less compared to the stated 5000KH per liter.

81g bicarbonate / 19g carbonate is 26% less and my test showed 24% less."

If this is correct, the KH mix simply consists of bicarbonates and carbonates. I have no idea to what extent any peptides are included and what their specific purpose is.
My guess is marketing, because both bicarbonates and carbonates are very cheap and it's not rocket science to make the mixture yourself.

 

[Skep18]

On your web site you claim that your Balling Light product

". To further aid in restoring and maintaining chemical balance, we’ve developed and added an Organic Peptide Polymer to our Balling salts. This key ingredient helps remove excess elements from the water column."

https://www.faunamarin.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/FM_HTU_Balling_Light_System_EN.pdf

Can you clarify which "excess elements" you believe are being exported, and why you believe they are present in excess in aquariums that use your product?

I may be completely wrong for obvious reasons but I hear polymer and thought of the TM product, Reef Actif. Figured polymer and "helps remove excess elements" meant some sort of carbon dosing.

Reef-Actif | Produktinformationen

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

Tropic Marin® Reef Actif is made up of a mixture of natural organic substances of predominantly marine origin. The biopolymers in Tropic Marin® Reef Actif bind excess nutrients and other pollutants and cause them to be degraded by specialised marine microorganisms. This promotes a natural marine microbiology in the aquarium and keeps the water extremely clear.

As you have posed the question to FM, hopefully they clarify.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I may be completely wrong for obvious reasons but I hear polymer and thought of the TM product, Reef Actif.

Yes, but Reef Actif does not contain amino acids or other nitrogen compounds, or maybe in traces. It is a mix of polysaccharides.

By the way: If a peptide is added and since the bicarbonate/carbonate solution is not sterile and kept sterile, shouldn't the peptide start to rot? The bicarbonate/carbonate solution will not inhibit bacterial growth and degradation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In a german forum somebody made a test with the KH Mix.

Translated:

"I bought the product yesterday and did a test today. I added 10g to 100ml of water (corresponds to 100g to 1 liter of water or 500g to 5 liters), followed the instructions, added the 10g to 70ml of osmosis water and then topped up to 100ml. Everything was weighed out beforehand with a calibrated scale.

The mixture was in the magnetic stirrer for a few hours. It also took a while for all the powder to dissolve completely. I used 0.5 ml of this mixture (with a 1 ml syringe) and tested it with one liter of seawater.

According to the manufacturer, 10ml KH solution increases the KH value by 0.5 per 100 liters (corresponds to 0.1ml solution per 1 liter of water). 0.5ml KH Mix solution should increase the KH by 2.5.


1 liter of seawater before adding:

pH 8.37

KH Salifert 7.7

KH Hanna Checker 7.8


After addition and forced mixing with magnetic stirrer (10 minutes)

pH 8.43

KH Salifert 9.6

KH Hanna Checker 9.7


KH difference: 1.9.

TARGET 2.50 to ACTUAL 1.90 is 24% less.

As a reminder: with pure bicarbonate you would get 3200KH/l, so the pH should not rise and the KH increase would also be less.

In the reef2reef forum someone mentioned the "old" Balling recipe of 81g bicarbonate and 19g carbonate, which corresponds to approx. 3700KH/L. That would be 26% less compared to the stated 5000KH per liter.

81g bicarbonate / 19g carbonate is 26% less and my test showed 24% less."

If this is correct, the KH mix simply consists of bicarbonates and carbonates. I have no idea to what extent any peptides are included and what their specific purpose is.
My guess is marketing, because both bicarbonates and carbonates are very cheap and it's not rocket science to make the mixture yourself.

Thanks. That all seems sensible.

 

[Pod_01]

Yes, but Reef Actif does not contain amino acids or other nitrogen compounds, or maybe in traces. It is a mix of polysaccharides.

By the way: If a peptide is added and since the bicarbonate/carbonate solution is not sterile and kept sterile, shouldn't the peptide start to rot? The bicarbonate/carbonate solution will not inhibit bacterial growth and degradation.

Since we are on the subject of peptide and I know exactly zero about them.

FM claims to add Organic Peptide polymer:

Would that change anything?


Also from the description it sounds like it is added to Alk, Ca and Mg… All 3 parts found in the Balling light.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since we are on the subject of peptide and I know exactly zero about them.

FM claims to add Organic Peptide polymer:

Would that change anything?


Also from the description it sounds like it is added to Alk, Ca and Mg… All 3 parts found in the Balling light.

Without knowing how much and what peptide, it’s impossible to say, but earlier in this thread I pointed out that it could possibly explain why they see (or claim to see) alk steady through the day, with slow breakdown of the peptide adding alk just as AFR does.

 

[twentyleagues]

Since we are on the subject of peptide and I know exactly zero about them.

FM claims to add Organic Peptide polymer:

Would that change anything?


Also from the description it sounds like it is added to Alk, Ca and Mg… All 3 parts found in the Balling light.

Not questioning you but the Solution. What constitutes excess and are you not just throwing money away with this method? I mean if I overdose mag and this peptide some how registers that and "sequesters" it now I am out that mag because its in my skimmer. And at what point does "it" decide what is excess? I am not a chemist obviously...lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am not a chemist obviously...lol

Peptides aren’t either. I’m not sure how they are supposed to know what is in excess. lol

 

[Pod_01]

Not questioning you but the Solution. What constitutes excess and are you not just throwing money away with this method? I mean if I overdose mag and this peptide some how registers that and "sequesters" it now I am out that mag because its in my skimmer. And at what point does "it" decide what is excess? I am not a chemist obviously...lol

Good question, no clue. I think Randy is trying to get clarification on that statement in post 467.
Maybe FM is using smart organic peptide polymer powered by ChatGPT…

I was really curious if there is difference in peptide vs. organic peptides polymer etc… ?
The terms are used like one should know what it is, yet I honestly have no clue!!!

Hans did mention that the peptide should start to rot… if that is the case it would be difficult for it to attract excess anything…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was really curious if there is difference in peptide vs. organic peptides polymer etc… ?
The terms are used like one should know what it is, yet I honestly have no clue!!!

All peptides are organic polymers, with the possible exception of really short ones that are dimers or trimers.

I’m not convened that bacteria can readily grow in the parts of the system, but I’m not sure they cannot.