Bolus dosing

[BeanAnimal]

There are, of course, lots of inconsistencies here.

If one is talking about dosing hydroxide (kalk or sodium hydroxide) Then it can certainly be the case that there is more abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate than if dosing bicarbonate. I expect that is generally true.

But there’s zero plausible way that does not lead to higher pH if you are able to maintain similar alkalinity. In fact, every bit of “wasted” alk dosed that way serves to drive the pH up even more. You are effectively adding hydroxide and removing carbonate, an overall process that must raise pH.


OH- (added) + CO3- + Ca++ —> CaCO3 + OH-

What I am struggling with is the conclusions being drawn by bridging basic facts and observations with unproven and/or impossible explanations. Maybe somebody else can watch and tell me what I am misinterpreting.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What I am struggling with is the conclusions being drawn by bridging basic facts and observations with unproven and/or impossible explanations. Maybe somebody else can watch and tell me what I am misinterpreting.

Is there a specific video you mean?

 

[idal305]

Is there a specific video you mean?

He says he’s been testing this method for four years in his coral farm and has it documented on his YouTube channel.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

He says he’s been testing this method for four years in his coral farm and has it documented on his YouTube channel.

Yes, we’ve been round and round on the “it works” merry go round. Few folks, if anyone in this thread, is claiming it wouldn’t work to grow corals.

The specific question at the moment is whether dosing bicarbonate ever attains a higher pH than carbonate or hydroxide dosed in the same way to maintain the same alk. Even a thousand years of testing bicarbonate bolus would never answer that question.

One needs to actually test those to make such a claim. Perhaps he did test them and reported the data. But I’ve not seen anyone suggest that is the case. If he or anyone else did, I’m more than happy to look it over.

 

[idal305]

Ahh gotcha . Thank you Randy

 

[spsick]

Old pH calibration buffers (especially pH 10) can also cause false high readings as the buffer absorbs CO2, drops in pH, and throws the calibration off.

Oh certainly, always do I heed Randy’s advice of questioning testing inconsistencies. This was tested and confirmed with multiple new/unopened pH packets.

 

[Beruka]

Your corals will grow faster and look better is funny claim.

I am very late adopter from T5 to ATI stratons. Stratons look nice but T5s annecdotally had more UV and color depth in tissue.

This all might be marketing about recapturing nostalgia.

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Yes, we’ve been round and round on the “it works” merry go round. Few folks, if anyone in this thread, is claiming it wouldn’t work to grow corals.

The specific question at the moment is whether dosing bicarbonate ever attains a higher pH than carbonate or hydroxide dosed in the same way to maintain the same alk. Even a thousand years of testing bicarbonate bolus would never answer that question.

One needs to actually test those to make such a claim. Perhaps he did test them and reported the data. But I’ve not seen anyone suggest that is the case. If he or anyone else did, I’m more than happy to look it over.

I think that's not disputed, clearly if you dosed your daily amount of kalk or carbonate in one hit you'd achieve a higher pH, but, it'd be a pH so high you'd likely wipe out your entire livestock and have milk for water, right?

The way I see it is that you can safely dose your entire daily amount of bicarb in one hit as was done in the olden days, with no loses and (for me) achieve a higher daily pH or at least as high a pH than the other mentioned methods or even by dosing bicarb hourly without the precipitation issues discussed.

As for my pH graphs being rubbished (I fully expected them to be) then I will say two things:

I ran the apex and ghl side by side for over a week as ghl is such a pain to set up it took me a good bit of time to switch over and set up all the modules alongside work etc. - the pH readings were within 0.1 of each other, apex was only 6 months old (I couldn't deal with the ginormous dosers and Trident innacuracies and errors) and GHL was brand new.

Skimmer - I saw no tangible change in daily pH when I got it online. It ticks along on the lowest pump setting but felt it was worthile mentioning at least.

I may try the Bolus experiment again with the Mrs bicarb and see as I'm intrigued by the difference in pH I've found from the ghl, I'll also do the dosing of Fauna KH into a litre of fresh salt water on a magnetic stirrer with a pH probe and see if it behaves differently to what I see in the tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think that's not disputed, clearly if you dosed your daily amount of kalk or carbonate in one hit you'd achieve a higher pH, but, it'd be a pH so high you'd likely wipe out your entire livestock and have milk for water, right?

The way I see it is that you can safely dose your entire daily amount of bicarb in one hit as was done in the olden days, with no loses and (for me) achieve a higher daily pH or at least as high a pH than the other mentioned methods or even by dosing bicarb hourly without the precipitation issues discussed.

As for my pH graphs being rubbished (I fully expected them to be) then I will say two things:

I ran the apex and ghl side by side for over a week as ghl is such a pain to set up it took me a good bit of time to switch over and set up all the modules alongside work etc. - the pH readings were within 0.1 of each other, apex was only 6 months old (I couldn't deal with the ginormous dosers and Trident innacuracies and errors) and GHL was brand new.

Skimmer - I saw no tangible change in daily pH when I got it online. It ticks along on the lowest pump setting but felt it was worthile mentioning at least.

I may try the Bolus experiment again with the Mrs bicarb and see as I'm intrigued by the difference in pH I've found from the ghl, I'll also do the dosing of Fauna KH into a litre of fresh salt water on a magnetic stirrer with a pH probe and see if it behaves differently to what I see in the tank.

Is that agreed? Ive read many negative things they’ve said about other additives, but no simple acknowledgment that they raise pH more.

Depending on the daily alk dose, yes, the pH would get higher than you want if given in a single dose.

But if you know what pH boost you want, one can make any combination of these additives to give an exact pH boost in a given tank, with a given dose , without resorting to complex explanations.

Again, we are back at the beginning, asking that if the bicarbonate bolus method is “better” than something else, what is that something else and what is the criteria?

If it’s only benefit is that it can be given as a bolus, that’s a different thought process than if the tank itself is doing better in some way.

If one kept the reef tank pH at the pH peak and steady alk at the alk peak of the bolus method, is the bolus better in some clearly apparent way?

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Is that agreed? Ive read many negative things they’ve said about other additives, but no simple acknowledgment that they raise pH more.

Depending on the daily alk dose, yes, the pH would get higher than you want if given in a single dose.

But if you know what pH boost you want, one can make any combination of these additives to give an exact pH boost in a given tank, with a given dose , without resorting to complex explanations.

Again, we are back at the beginning, asking that if the bicarbonate bolus method is “better” than something else, what is that something else and what is the criteria?

If it’s only benefit is that it can be given as a bolus, that’s a different thought process than if the tank itself is doing better in some way.

If one kept the reef tank pH at the pH peak and steady alk at the alk peak of the bolus method, is the bolus better in some clearly apparent way?

I would assume based on all they've said in videos etc that the reason it's 'better' is because of the lower precipitation risk. They claim that precipitation binds trace elements and I think phosphates leading to trace instabilities.

I assume as they have what I believe is the largest ICP lab and sample data out of all the reefing companies along with their 'advisors' speaking with customers they've joined some dots of dosing methods used against ICP test results. You also input your chosen dosing method and other tank info into your ICP portal.

 

[Garf]

I would assume based on all they've said in videos etc that the reason it's 'better' is because of the lower precipitation risk. They claim that precipitation binds trace elements and I think phosphates leading to trace instabilities.

I assume as they have what I believe is the largest ICP lab and sample data out of all the reefing companies along with their 'advisors' speaking with customers they've joined some dots of dosing methods used against ICP test results. You also input your chosen dosing method and other tank info into your ICP portal.

You would certainly have expected them to know the potency of their own product, that's for sure.

They also claim, one enormous alteration of DKH per day is better than lots of tiny alterations.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would assume based on all they've said in videos etc that the reason it's 'better' is because of the lower precipitation risk. They claim that precipitation binds trace elements and I think phosphates leading to trace instabilities.

I assume as they have what I believe is the largest ICP lab and sample data out of all the reefing companies along with their 'advisors' speaking with customers they've joined some dots of dosing methods used against ICP test results. You also input your chosen dosing method and other tank info into your ICP portal.

Ok, so the entire rationale for the method is based off the fact that one can bolus bicarbonate but not the others? I have no issues with that. If one want to do once a day dosing, it’s a great way to go.

Since most heavy users of carbonate or hydroxide spread out the dose , the question is then, what is best for what endpoints when talking about the tank itself. Bolus bicarbonate or spread out carbonate or spread out hydroxide (or something else entirely, such as AFR.

I make no claim about that, and with many different possible endpoints, there may be as many answers as there are corals.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I would assume based on all they've said in videos etc that the reason it's 'better' is because of the lower precipitation risk. They claim that precipitation binds trace elements and I think phosphates leading to trace instabilities.

How is dumping it all in at once less chance of precipitation as opposed to spreading it throughout the day? Unless (as Randy indicated) we are just talking about what can or can’t be “bolus” dosed.

I assume as they have what I believe is the largest ICP lab and sample data out of all the reefing companies along with their 'advisors' speaking with customers they've joined some dots of dosing methods used against ICP test results.

what dots? ICP tells you nothing about the system itself, volume, dosing schedule, system health, coral health, coral growth or coloration, lighting effects, polyp extension, feeding types or cycles, etc. Moreover, even if that data were collected with the ICP results, the algorithmic correlation would be insanely complex.

The ICP data mountain claims and conclusions that they make are also just more fantasy used give the false impression that these are scientific facts.

To that end, like the rest of this nonsense it is not published and peer reviewed because it doesn’t pass the sniff test and instead is mostly just Claude, and by proxy Doug, flapping at the gums.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They claim that precipitation binds trace elements and I think phosphates leading to trace instabilities.

I don’t dispute the binding. I’ve noted it in articles for decades. Instability is perhaps not justified, but it is one of many sinks, along with skimmers, GAC, GFO, aluminum oxide, Purigen, coral snow, macroalgae, corals, microalgae, bacteria, and on and on.

If one is dosing to offset these sinks, I’m not sure why getting rid of one of them is a big benefit. It might even be a positive for anything above your target level that gets incorporated.

 

[ReneReef]

Larger skimmer bringing in more air can explain this pH bump all by itself. Especially if the first skimmer may have been undersized.

Then throw in a completely different pH monitor/tool/probe and voila “magic”

I ran my old 250 on the Hydros system and it showed my pH in a certain range. I don’t recall that range. Something like 8.2 to 8.4. Calibrated probe and all. I switched out to Apex and now my pH showed something like 7.9 to 8.2. Again, calibrated probe and all. I had sold the Hydros system so I couldn’t try the Hydros probe on the Apex.

I never knew which one was accurate. Even after being calibrated they didn’t agree. This was my own personal foray into pH probes/systems being wildly inaccurate/different.

No claims can be made in any way when so many variables are introduced.

And don't forget the prescribed significant increase in lighting intensity.
Light has a huge impact on pH.


Hmmm
Maybe I could bottle some water and sell it as a pH additive with the instructions that you have to blast your tank with double the light intensity as before in order to activate its photosensitive mystery peptide...
But before I do, I'll first find me some influencers to help me market, uh... "test" this revolutionary product.

 

[idal305]

And don't forget the prescribed significant increase in lighting intensity.
Light has a huge impact on pH.


Hmmm
Maybe I could bottle some water and sell it as a pH additive with the instructions that you have to blast your tank with double the light intensity as before in order to activate its photosensitive mystery peptide...
But before I do, I'll first find me some influencers to help me market, uh... "test" this revolutionary product.

I truly have no dog in this fight I am just stuck at home with influenza A and happened to stumble across this “balling light”. At no point do they ever recommend doing “double the light intensity”. They actually recommend having the peak on the initial “lights on” and you ramp down from there. No different than having a peak period in the middle of the day for 3-6 hours, instead it’s at the beginning.

Josh from WWC actually runs his lighting schedule in this fashion.

 

[BeanAnimal]

At no point do they ever recommend doing “double the light intensity”.

I think you may have missed what he actually said regarding light intensity -- and the context of the "double the light intensity" comment.

Being pointed here, because so much of this thread are responses like that -- dodging or distorting ones words in order to provide a fitting defensive response. While this may not have been YOUR intention, it is a pattern followed quite often by those promoting or defending FM's words and methods.

 

[idal305]

I can only say what I’ve heard on videos throughout the day on YouTube. I will kindly bow out of this. Que Homer Simpson bush meme.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I can only say what I’ve heard on videos throughout the day on YouTube. I will kindly bow out of this. Que Homer Simpson bush meme.

There is more scientific fact to be found here in the thread than in all of the videos. Repeating that most of us have no issue with the method, it’s the scientific explanations that come along with it that are in question.

 

[Pod_01]

I truly have no dog in this fight I am just stuck at home with influenza A and happened to stumble across this “balling light”. At no point do they ever recommend doing “double the light intensity”. They actually recommend having the peak on the initial “lights on” and you ramp down from there. No different than having a peak period in the middle of the day for 3-6 hours, instead it’s at the beginning.

Josh from WWC actually runs his lighting schedule in this fashion.

The increase in light is referring to the FM recommendation to increase light intensity by 20%:

The other recommendations is that BOLUS works well in well ventilated space with fresh air.

Again great suggestions, and both of these do help pH. Use of baking soda, soda ash, hydroxide or Kalk will not change the pH behaviour.