Bolus dosing

[Mo.]

And you have missed the context of this and countless other comments in this thread many times. Much of the "round and round" is the result.



That is not being stated or argued by the vast majority of participants here (if any, in those terms). Why do you insist repeating things like that if they are not what the bulk of this conversation, or even relevant side conversations for that matter?

That’s just not true.

Changing your narrative doesn’t make those comments go away and saying I’ve continually missed the context when it’s plain to see doesn’t excuse that it’s been said.

Just because more and more people are running bolus and it now seems to have many more people claiming success with it, and many more seasoned reefers adopting it, you can’t now claim that what you said all along was that it works, but you don’t believe in crystals. You were categorically and in no uncertain terms claiming, in direct and personal terms claimjng that the pied piper had come to town and brainwashed us all!!

You were clearly wrong and you’re now doing a patch job by conveniently and selectively ignoring some of the key points that were made and at the same time often resort to personal attacks.

Thats what I have come to expect every time I return to the thread and almost inevitably happens.

Who knows maybe one day you guys will even try it?! Lol

 

[Mo.]

It has been mentioned on this thread many a time that if anything a daily Bolus dose creates instability and that is a bad thing.

Lots of assumptions made..

And to your point.

The above has been said many times as a reason against adopting bolus and I don’t recall any of you calling it out at any time. When in reality you call out everything point by point without hesitation.

This would imply agreement or you would have disagreed. It’s that simple and we all agree that instability pushes towards negative growth trends in corals.

So something clearly doesn’t fit.
Either bolus creates instability and negative impact on corals, or it creates stability and positive growth trends as claimed.

Who knows, maybe one day you will try it and find out? Lol

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Stark difference from what? Pure bicarbonate dosed the same way and in same concentration to the same tank?

Yes, as per my previous trend graphs from the last time I did it

 

[Garf]

Who knows, maybe one day you will try it and find out? Lol

Bean has repeatedly stated that he has bulk dosed Alk in the past. I, and I presume thousands of others, have also made corrective doses in the past and never noticed half the Alk disappearing. I'm guessing seeing as you were already using Faunas Balling Light, the weird effects created by the calculator anomaly would not affect you, or anyone already on the Fauna system. It has been known for a while that corals can move between systems of lower/higher Alk. The claim that these swings are "better" than small doses is up for examination.
Seeing that you are not light blasting, I'm not even sure you are doing the "Bolus Method" to be honest. That's an important part of it, according to the system designers.

 

[Mo.]

Bean has repeatedly stated that he has bulk dosed Alk in the past. I, and I presume thousands of others, have also made corrective doses in the past and never noticed half the Alk disappearing. I'm guessing seeing as you were already using Faunas Balling Light, the weird effects created by the calculator anomaly would not affect you, or anyone already on the Fauna system. It has been known for a while that corals can move between systems of lower/higher Alk. The claim that these swings are "better" than small doses is up for examination.
Seeing that you are not light blasting, I'm not even sure you are doing the "Bolus Method" to be honest. That's an important part of it, according to the system designers.

No- the lighting wasn’t part of the original bolus method. It was added later as it was felt that there were specific benefits related to the Fauna Marin system.

So- Bean bulk dosing is the same as bolus and me using bolus without light is not bolus.

Whatever next. Talk about creating rods for your own backs. It’s never ending rods in here. Lol.

the narrative was that the lied piper brought bolus in and it could t possibly work. She it was pointed out, I think by Claude that people had been bulk dosing for years. It was then claimed that it was the explanation that caused the disagreement and not the actual method.

That narrative definitely changed to support your ever weakening arguments against the bolus dose itself.

The chemistry will be debated for a while yet, I’m sure. We may never get agreement. But you can’t now fault the bolus itself as more and more people adopt it and show it works. Whatever “works” means lol

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hello Guys, I just switched to the bolus method. For the context some months ago I tried the bolus with home balling (bicarbonate) and the zeovit method . It gave me decent results. Then two months ago I switched to modern reef, well I was not so happy with it, yellow colors were good, but other corals had less good colors, Kh consumption and corals growth went strongly down, less polyps extensions and I started to get cyano, lost a few frags. So I decided to switch back to bolus but this time 100% fauna marin. It is just a two weeks, so i can't say to much, but pH improves, corals shows again growth, Kh consumption went up and colors becomes better again. I will see how it evolves the next weeks. But for now I'm happy with it. I 'm experimenting also with different dosing times from 8h30 to 9h30 to see how my tank reacts. Light turn on at 9h and are fully open at 9h30. I will share some graph if it can helps, but you can see and effect after the dosing. Actually I also have a CO2 scrubber Wich it let go empty, this could maybe influence some results as fauna marin advise to not have one, but the advice if we have one to let it go empty for not make to fast changed

I am missing some context. You give a general explanation but without dates.

What caused the pH peak a short time after 8 in the morning on January 9 and why no pH peak at January 19? Change of dosing? Did you go from modern reef to bolus between the two dates?

 

[Garf]

No- the lighting wasn’t part of the original bolus method. It was added later as it was felt that there were specific benefits related to the Fauna Marin system.

So- Bean bulk dosing is the same as bolus and me using bolus without light is not bolus.

Whatever next. Talk about creating rods for your own backs. It’s never ending rods in here. Lol.

the narrative was that the lied piper brought bolus in and it could t possibly work. She it was pointed out, I think by Claude that people had been bulk dosing for years. It was then claimed that it was the explanation that caused the disagreement and not the actual method.

That narrative definitely changed to support your ever weakening arguments against the bolus dose itself.

The chemistry will be debated for a while yet, I’m sure. We may never get agreement. But you can’t now fault the bolus itself as more and more people adopt it and show it works. Whatever “works” means lol

Wrong again; first vid on this thread;

 

[Mo.]

Wrong again; first vid on this thread;

This video is after bolus marketing started.

The very first users didn’t do the lighting changes. They were introduced later, for very specific reasons outside of pH benefits, which contrary to your belief, you also get without the lighting changes.

Bolus didn’t start when this thread did. Lol.

 

[carbl]

Hey mo, what's the problem?
You do bolus, you like it like many others. But as with any method, there are also people who have had negative experiences.
But that's not the main issue. This thread is so long because it has been poisoned from the start with fm's claims. Starting with the false statement about what is in the KH Mix. To me most of the subsequent claims are an attempt to deflect from that (tank is not the sea, crystals etc). This thing has been discussed up and down.

I agree, there are some who may be too critical of bolus on this background or dismiss it out of hand. That's the same as those who praise it to the skies.

I think most people are concerned with what exactly happens through the bolus dosage and the increase in light. Measurable, verifiable.

It's always the same, a new method is propagated that makes everything much better and easier. This story is so old. Anyone who has been in the hobby for any length of time knows that the most important things are things like good maintenance and care, patience and dedication. Things you can't buy.

I recently saw an exceptionally impressive 20 year old SPS tank run by a 70 year old - with a calcium reactor and kalkwasser. His secret: 30 hours a week for care and maintenance.

And it's no different with the other methods, AFR, two part, carbonate, bicarbonate, kalkwasser, calcium reactor etc. For me it is interesting to know and discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each method. And bolus is also about that. Nothing more.

 

[Mo.]

Hey mo, what's the problem?
You do bolus, you like it like many others. But as with any method, there are also people who have had negative experiences.
But that's not the main issue. This thread is so long because it has been poisoned from the start with fm's claims. Starting with the false statement about what is in the KH Mix. To me most of the subsequent claims are an attempt to deflect from that (tank is not the sea, crystals etc). This thing has been discussed up and down.

I agree, there are some who may be too critical of bolus on this background or dismiss it out of hand. That's the same as those who praise it to the skies.

I think most people are concerned with what exactly happens through the bolus dosage and the increase in light. Measurable, verifiable.

It's always the same, a new method is propagated that makes everything much better and easier. This story is so old. Anyone who has been in the hobby for any length of time knows that the most important things are things like good maintenance and care, patience and dedication. Things you can't buy.

I recently saw an exceptionally impressive 20 year old SPS tank run by a 70 year old - with a calcium reactor and kalkwasser. His secret: 30 hours a week for care and maintenance.

And it's no different with the other methods, AFR, two part, carbonate, bicarbonate, kalkwasser, calcium reactor etc. For me it is interesting to know and discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each method. And bolus is also about that. Nothing more.

Hey Carbi

Well summarised- I agree with your sentiments!

I’ve only really been interested in my PH observations, which I have been told in many different ways and means that my observations are incorrect. I came here looking for that explanation if there was one.

I occasionally call out narrative changes that are beginning to occur with increasing frequency, because it’s now clear that bolus works because so many people use it. For me, it was only a matter of time, because I knew I didn’t make up my observations.

But again, you have summarised well. Whether there is chemistry to explain what happens outside of a faulty calculator, we’ll wait and see.

Cheers
Mo

 

[WILDREEFER1000]

Thanks for posting.

Modern Reef literally says their products are a secret formula, so it may be hard to draw conclusions other than that you did not find it to be as good as FM Balling.

Where is your pH meter in relation to dosing? The little spike looks like the alk supplement encountered the probe before mixing in very well.

I dose the bicarbonate in the middle of the sump and the probe is at the other end close to the return pump. Interestingly since two days I not more see the spike?

 

[WILDREEFER1000]

It for sure is interesting wild Reefer sees improvement using fauna bicarb than DIY.

Keen to see how my kitchen bicarb vs fauna bicarb goes this week. I imagine it'll behave similarly to it did back in June albeit with equal dosages of each powder.

I also would assume that Randy is confident that both trend graphs will be identical to each other (within reason) if fauna bicarb truly is just purr bicarb and nothing else of note. Can purity play a profound effect? As a note - I will add my usual trace 3dose in with the kitchen bicarb.

I not said that, I said results from bolus vs modern reef and other previous method is better. I get good results with my home bicarbonate and also the tropic marin kh in addiction of the zeovits products .now I try the fauna marin to see if it is even better ( not for the bolus effect but for the other things that are in it and in his traces). I think every bicarbonate should work for get the effect. Claude can just not recommend other products wich he not made wich is normal, nobody would do it and also if you used another product with bad quality and crash you tank he would be responsible. Normal that he does not that. But any good bicarbonate should be able to make the bolus effect.

 

[WILDREEFER1000]

Hey mo, what's the problem?
You do bolus, you like it like many others. But as with any method, there are also people who have had negative experiences.
But that's not the main issue. This thread is so long because it has been poisoned from the start with fm's claims. Starting with the false statement about what is in the KH Mix. To me most of the subsequent claims are an attempt to deflect from that (tank is not the sea, crystals etc). This thing has been discussed up and down.

I agree, there are some who may be too critical of bolus on this background or dismiss it out of hand. That's the same as those who praise it to the skies.

I think most people are concerned with what exactly happens through the bolus dosage and the increase in light. Measurable, verifiable.

It's always the same, a new method is propagated that makes everything much better and easier. This story is so old. Anyone who has been in the hobby for any length of time knows that the most important things are things like good maintenance and care, patience and dedication. Things you can't buy.

I recently saw an exceptionally impressive 20 year old SPS tank run by a 70 year old - with a calcium reactor and kalkwasser. His secret: 30 hours a week for care and maintenance.

And it's no different with the other methods, AFR, two part, carbonate, bicarbonate, kalkwasser, calcium reactor etc. For me it is interesting to know and discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each method. And bolus is also about that. Nothing more.

I know the tank Wich you speak, but it is not fully accurate, he use the calcium reactor with the korallenzucht method.

 

[WILDREEFER1000]

I am missing some context. You give a general explanation but without dates.

What caused the pH peak a short time after 8 in the morning on January 9 and why no pH peak at January 19? Change of dosing? Did you go from modern reef to bolus between the two dates?

No the graph were all after the swith on bolus. I got the spike at the beginning, but not anymore since two days? Don't know why? I was experimenting also with different schedules, dosing 30 min before, 15 min before the lights go on, when the lights go on.. . Too see if I can make the peak of the spike be at the same time the normal pH increase from the light start to see if I can get a still bigger increase and not the fall after the spike. I'm still experimenting. In the bolus pdf, they say depending the tank the bolus effects kick in between 10 or 30min for me it seems to be 10min at the beginning, now not sure as I get not more spike. I will observ it the next days.

 

[Hans-Werner]

No the graph were all after the swith on bolus. I got the spike at the beginning, but not anymore since two days? Don't know why? I was experimenting also with different schedules, dosing 30 min before, 15 min before the lights go on, when the lights go on.. . Too see if I can make the peak of the spike be at the same time the normal pH increase from the light start to see if I can get a still bigger increase and not the fall after the spike. I'm still experimenting. In the bolus pdf, they say depending the tank the bolus effects kick in between 10 or 30min for me it seems to be 10min at the beginning, now not sure as I get not more spike. I will observ it the next days.

Maybe @Randy Holmes-Farley has an explanation for the spike to pH 8.35 and the rapid drop? I mean except that pH probes sometimes behave a little bit unexpected, at least to me.

Is this likely with pure sodium bicarbonate? Why the rapid drop? Oversaturation and precipitation?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe @Randy Holmes-Farley has an explanation for the spike to pH 8.35 and the rapid drop? I mean except that pH probes sometimes behave a little bit unexpected, at least to me.

Is this likely with pure sodium bicarbonate? Why the rapid drop? Oversaturation and precipitation?

If we are talking about the kind of spike in the graph below just after 8:00, it can only be a pH meter glitch (say, electrical interference), or the alk additive encountering the pH probe before it gets mixed in (which is consistent with the users description of the setup). Note that a sodium bicarbonate solution has a pH value in the mid 8's.

It is also possible that such a pH value for sodium bicarbonate solution may have misled some users to assume that if it has a pH higher than the tank, that it will necessarily raise pH. That is not true because bicarbonate is a significantly stronger acid in seawater than in a simple sodium bicarbonate solution.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No the graph were all after the swith on bolus. I got the spike at the beginning, but not anymore since two days? Don't know why?

The spike may depend critically on the random currents in the sump moving the added alk solution around in slightly different ways before it leaves the sump.

 

[carbl]

I know the tank Wich you speak, but it is not fully accurate, he use the calcium reactor with the korallenzucht method.

He only specifies calciume reactor and kalkwater. He probably used to add ATI essentials, but this is not currently the case. Zeovit is not mentioned. It doesn't really matter, I just picked it out at random because I saw it recently. Everyone knows such examples. Nobody has to claim that this or that doesn't work in the long term, creates problems like old tank syndrome etc.
The point is that supply systems play a role, but much less than some people claim. And anyone who is told that everything works much better with this or that method and that other methods lead to problems should ring alarm bells.

Here is the SPS tank mentioned (language is German)

 

[BeanAnimal]

That’s just not true.

Changing your narrative doesn’t make those comments go away and saying I’ve continually missed the context when it’s plain to see doesn’t excuse that it’s been said.

My “narrative” has not changed at all and to continue to escalate that accusation is ludicrous. All 110 pages of this thread are publicly readable and my stance has been clear.

I think that Claude’s science is made up and Doug is Claude’s parrot. I have said from jump that many of us used "bolus" dosing in the past with success.

Just because more and more people are running bolus and it now seems to have many more people claiming success with it, and many more seasoned reefers adopting it, you can’t now claim that what you said all along was that it works, but you don’t believe in crystals. You were categorically and in no uncertain terms claiming, in direct and personal terms claimjng that the pied piper had come to town and brainwashed us all!!

I don't care who adopts the method, how many do, or how much success they have, my issue (1000th time?) is with the pseudo-science being invented to explain that success.

Your comments again illustrate your failure to separate comments about Claude's marketing, scientific claims and explanations -- and the fact that we are not arguing against "bolus" dosing, no matter how much you imagine that we are.

You were clearly wrong and you’re now doing a patch job by conveniently and selectively ignoring some of the key points that were made and at the same time often resort to personal attacks.

Wrong about exactly what? What "key points"? If you are going to make such bold statements, you should be able to fully back them up with facts and examples.

That narrative definitely changed to support your ever weakening arguments against the bolus dose itself.

You have worked double time to create that narrative for 110 pages but the argument here is very clearly not against "bolus", but rather the junk science used to promote it.

I occasionally call out narrative changes that are beginning to occur with increasing frequency, because it’s now clear that bolus works because so many people use it. For me, it was only a matter of time, because I knew I didn’t make up my observations.

Let me help you with that .
I occasionally continually call out mischaracterize narratives factual comments changes that are beginning to occur with increasing frequency.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The spike may depend critically on the random currents in the sump moving the added alk solution around in slightly different ways before it leaves the sump.

I personally think that this is a significant point with regard to ANY testing. Just because one has a "high flow" sump, does not mean that there are not eddy currents or pockets of flow that are somewhat captive.

So one assuming that something dumped into a running system will homogeneously disperse instantly or within a few minutes or some fixed ratio of system turnover is (in my opinion) a misconception.