Bolus dosing

[Hans-Werner]

If we are talking about the kind of spike in the graph below just after 8:00, it can only be a pH meter glitch (say, electrical interference), or the alk additive encountering the pH probe before it gets mixed in (which is consistent with the users description of the setup). Note that a sodium bicarbonate solution has a pH value in the mid 8's.

It is also possible that such a pH value for sodium bicarbonate solution may have misled some users to assume that if it has a pH higher than the tank, that it will necessarily raise pH. That is not true because bicarbonate is a significantly stronger acid in seawater than in a simple sodium bicarbonate solution.

This is exactly what I have meant and what I have meant with the "unexpected behavior of pH probes". When mixing different liquids with different pHs the pH meter shows ups and downs. I thought that such a spike must be such an event. Thank you, Randy! So this is not really a "bolus effect" but an artifact.

 

[Oldreefer44]

I can get behind that.

Grass Roots - Let's Live for Today. Gets played here often as they are in my Protest and Rage playlist. You know, the whole 60's, golden bombs of light and love, Berkeley Hills and San Francisco, Bohemian jam.

Haight AshburyMan. I was there.

 

[ingchr1]

This is exactly what I have meant and what I have meant with the "unexpected behavior of pH probes". When mixing different liquids with different pHs the pH meter shows ups and downs. I thought that such a spike must be such an event. Thank you, Randy! So this is not really a "bolus effect" but an artifact.

I personally think that this is a significant point with regard to ANY testing. Just because one has a "high flow" sump, does not mean that there are not eddy currents or pockets of flow that are somewhat captive.

So one assuming that something dumped into a running system will homogeneously disperse instantly or within a few minutes or some fixed ratio of system turnover is (in my opinion) a misconception.

Take my example for instance, I dose into the chamber with my pH probe. It takes about 10 minutes for the spike to subside.

Yes, this is with carbonate and not bicarbonate. Also, worst case example as it's an AIO and the chamber is ~ 3" x 3". However, I think it helps demonstrate the point both of you are making.

For comparison here is my daily pH (not sure of any applicability to the discussion).

I dose sodium carbonate six times a day (00:00, 04:00, 08:00, 12:00, 16:00 and 20:00). Each dose is 8.2 ml. I have an AIO and the dose is in the chamber with the pH probe, hence the spikes. The tank has ~31 gallons of water.

Light schedule:

LED Bar 1: 10:00 to 21:00
LED Bar 2: 13:00 to 22:00
T5's (two bulb): 15:00 to 20:00

 

[Oldreefer44]

Hey mo, what's the problem?
You do bolus, you like it like many others. But as with any method, there are also people who have had negative experiences.
But that's not the main issue. This thread is so long because it has been poisoned from the start with fm's claims. Starting with the false statement about what is in the KH Mix. To me most of the subsequent claims are an attempt to deflect from that (tank is not the sea, crystals etc). This thing has been discussed up and down.

I agree, there are some who may be too critical of bolus on this background or dismiss it out of hand. That's the same as those who praise it to the skies.

I think most people are concerned with what exactly happens through the bolus dosage and the increase in light. Measurable, verifiable.

It's always the same, a new method is propagated that makes everything much better and easier. This story is so old. Anyone who has been in the hobby for any length of time knows that the most important things are things like good maintenance and care, patience and dedication. Things you can't buy.

I recently saw an exceptionally impressive 20 year old SPS tank run by a 70 year old - with a calcium reactor and kalkwasser. His secret: 30 hours a week for care and maintenance.

And it's no different with the other methods, AFR, two part, carbonate, bicarbonate, kalkwasser, calcium reactor etc. For me it is interesting to know and discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each method. And bolus is also about that. Nothing more.

Except that, I have been in the hobby since 1975 and have tried many of the methods you mention. Nothing and I sincerely mean nothing has worked nearly as well as this. Why? Don't know and don't care. Is there some sort of secret formula. Technically yes. Because what is in it (referring to the trace additives) is a secret. Doubtful that it's anything you wouldn't find it in any number of other products. Also, I went through the last issue of Coral magazine and quickly counted 31 products that were claiming great results that couldn't be proven without a sophisticated lab and thousands of dollars to correctly test. Agree that things like good maintenance and care, patience and dedication and things you can't buy are most important but doesn't mean that added on top of that that there are not new systems that are better than whatever the person was using previously. Not hyping it or have an interest in helping out FM more than any other product line but results are results. Now, if we can keep Garf and Mo going we can hit 100,000 views. Keep it up guys.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Also, I went through the last issue of Coral magazine and quickly counted 31 products that were claiming great results that couldn't be proven without a sophisticated lab and thousands of dollars to correctly test.

I think most of as agree that embellished marketing is a problem. In the case of FM (at least to me) the difference is not only the amount, but that their marketing and following feels to be systemically built around it. Silly bullet points on a box are one thing -- inventing a whole body of shaky science and explanations and building upon them over numerous products and marketing efforts is another.

Most vendors when caught, retreat to nuance or pedantic explanations to save face -- FM just doubles down and invents more science, claiming the deniers are uneducated in the sciences that they hav discovered. It is like string theory, when in doubt just add another dimension to explain the prior 9 that don't add up. When that fails, add the 11th (m-theory).... Or just leap to 26 dimensions and call it a day (Bosonic string theory). I have solved it. Bolus Dosing is Quantum Reefing.

 

[lombeard]

If Bolus works, then great. Who cares. I still like KZ products while they are out of fashion, each to their own. The issue I have is that the marketing tour is making claims that things like kalk are bad, and insinuating it causes "old tank syndrome" etc. Kalk for instance, we all know it works and some of the most beautiful tanks in the world are running it in some capacity (including FM sponsored reefers). Tanks have been running it for decades successfully, so what do they gain from trying to talk poorly about it other than to shill their own product. I've never cared for the idea of trying to make others look bad so you can look good, and for that reason I'll spend my money supporting other brands.

 

[WILDREEFER1000]

He only specifies calciume reactor and kalkwater. He probably used to add ATI essentials, but this is not currently the case. Zeovit is not mentioned. It doesn't really matter, I just picked it out at random because I saw it recently. Everyone knows such examples. Nobody has to claim that this or that doesn't work in the long term, creates problems like old tank syndrome etc.
The point is that supply systems play a role, but much less than some people claim. And anyone who is told that everything works much better with this or that method and that other methods lead to problems should ring alarm bells.

Here is the SPS tank mentioned (language is German)

I know it, he his just one half hour from my home, he is since 23 years a user of their method. it is even on the zeovit webside since long time and there Facebook last year. It is probably not showed in the video because the guy who makes the video for ati and fauna marin. He probably don't want to made publicity for other brands that are not his customers
There is also an older video from his tank some years ago on you tube where you see the colors better.

Manfred Trusheim | korallen-zucht.de

www.korallen-zucht.de

 

[WILDREEFER1000]

This is exactly what I have meant and what I have meant with the "unexpected behavior of pH probes". When mixing different liquids with different pHs the pH meter shows ups and downs. I thought that such a spike must be such an event. Thank you, Randy! So this is not really a "bolus effect" but an artifact.

To be sure other people need to test. I'm not sure it is a probe issue, why did the spike exactly take 10min befor decrease even when I changed the dosing TIME?

 

[WILDREEFER1000]

I also found an old graph from September when I used my own balling. One day I forgot to dose in the morning and did it in the evening. You can clearly see also a pH increase that can't not come from the light.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I also found an old graph from September when I used my own balling. One day I forgot to dose in the morning and did it in the evening. You can clearly see also a pH increase that can't not come from the light.

Your own Balling means what chemical?

Why was the pH trending down from Sep 4 to Sep 8?

 

[rtparty]

To be sure other people need to test. I'm not sure it is a probe issue, why did the spike exactly take 10min befor decrease even when I changed the dosing TIME?

Does your probe and system plot every second or every day?

My Apex only plotted every 10 or 15 minutes. I can’t remember which

 

[Garf]

I also found an old graph from September when I used my own balling. One day I forgot to dose in the morning and did it in the evening. You can clearly see also a pH increase that can't not come from the light.

Yes, increasing DKH to previously attained levels will do that assuming CO2 is the same. One of the questions asked of Bolus is "Why let alkalinity decline, depressing pH?"

 

[Pod_01]

Why was the pH trending down from Sep 4 to Sep 8?

I seen similar patterns on my system, gradual decline and bump.
For me the causes was CO2 scrubber depleted and when the media was changed the system had nice increase in pH.

Not saying that what happened but WildReefer1000 did mention he did used or is still using CO2 scrubber.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I seen similar patterns on my system, gradual decline and bump.
For me the causes was CO2 scrubber depleted and when the media was changed the system had nice increase in pH.

Not saying that what happened but WildReefer1000 did mention he did used or is still using CO2 scrubber.

That’s certainly a plausible explanation. A significant alk boost after a decline would be another.

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Yes, increasing DKH to previously attained levels will do that assuming CO2 is the same. One of the questions asked of Bolus is "Why let alkalinity decline, depressing pH?"

I don't see much of a pH decline right now.

 

[Garf]

I don't see much of a pH decline right now.

Well in your case it was theoretically about 0.07pH units from memory. Why is it already lower than it was this morning? What is your maximum alk reading? I'll assume your lower Alk reading is 1.8Dkh lower. What Alk levels did you used to run, before Bolus.

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Well in your case it was theoretically about 0.07pH units from memory. Why is it already lower than it was this morning? What is your maximum alk reading? I'll assume your lower Alk reading is 1.8Dkh lower. What Alk levels did you used to run, before Bolus.

It's not currently lower than it was in the morning, that was yesterday's full trend, it dropped to a low of 8.17 so 0.03 lower than the day before - nothing to write home about there.

Typically I do not test more than twice per day with KHD - it test just before Bolus dose and 12 hours later around peak pH time - so I don't catch the peak alk level unless I run it 24 tests per day. Been getting a fairly consistent around 8 & 8dkh tests the past couple days - no night time alk drop off of note.

Have always aimed to have alk around the 7.5-8 mark but it does creep up to around 9 and as low as 7 sometimes and I don't go micro managing my daily dose, just increase if there is a consistent down trend.

Have a couple of easier days coming Wednesday and Thursday so will do the back to back test then.

 

[Garf]

It's not currently lower than it was in the morning, that was yesterday's full trend, it dropped to a low of 8.17 so 0.03 lower than the day before - nothing to write home about there.

Typically I do not test more than twice per day with KHD - it test just before Bolus dose and 12 hours later around peak pH time - so I don't catch the peak alk level unless I run it 24 tests per day. Been getting a fairly consistent around 8 & 8dkh tests the past couple days - no night time alk drop off of note.

Have always aimed to have alk around the 7.5-8 mark but it does creep up to around 9 and as low as 7 sometimes and I don't go micro managing my daily dose, just increase if there is a consistent down trend.

Have a couple of easier days coming Wednesday and Thursday so will do the back to back test then.

Don't you get milky water when it gets to more than 8.5pH?

 

[Welsh Reefer.]

Don't you get milky water when it gets to more than 8.5pH?

I have been advised (by my ICP consultant) my pH creeps too high and some precipitation can occur beyond 8.5... Bolus effect for ya, standard dosing peaked around 8.2ish, so there's something to it regarding the effect on pH

 

[Garf]

so there's something to it regarding the effect on pH

I don't think anyone has said this to be untrue, it's just not the Alk, apart from the previously mentioned relationships. Are you growing more algae? Perhaps fuelled by the traces? How sure are you it's the coral driving up pH? Baring in mind the Bolus System is "Designed" to protect photosynthetic organisms from light stress and provide all the trace required for maximum growth.