Bubbling SPS disease

justy

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@Troylee your Calcium is running high because of Kalkwasser and All for Reef. Both raise Calcium. All for Reef is particularly interesting because it doesn't raise it immediately, it raises levels as time goes on.

You might dose AFR Monday and not see a change in Calcium until Wed/Thurs. Kalk definitely raises Calcium as well depending on your saturation point.

So my MH theory may work in @justy experiment. I am almost positive there are certain bad bacteria and pathogens in all water that MH sterilizes. I don't think LEDs have the opportunity to do this as they lack many outputs that MH has, like true UV, etc.

In short, I think the SPS color up more under LEDs to protect themselves from this bad bacteria. Call it either a protective response or an aggressive approach that repels the bacteria for whatever reason, one of the two.

Under MH, the SPS aren't that colorful, but grow fantastic as they don't need to color up as much to protect themselves from the bad bacteria.

I'll do a complete write up or video on this soon and add some things I've discovered. It's no debate that using MH, SPS do better health wise and under LED they display magnificent colors. I've noticed MH is more forgiving of mistakes in water chemistry than LED. I can bring back AN Acropora 90% of the time that has almost completely expelled it's zooxanthellae and is totally white skeleton. I have numerous examples of this that I've done this year with Maricultured. Maricultured has been looked at as almost impossible to keep alive past 4 to 6 months in the home aquarium. My reef system is 90% Maricultured and they almost all looked pretty bad after coming to me from stress during shipping.

At any rate, these discussions we've had here are very good as every one of you has an open mind and is willing to test and try different approaches. That's how the industry will find breakthroughs in science as it pertains to corals, lighting, water chemistry, feeding, etc. So thank you all for the excellent discussions, keep it up!

@justy or @Goonter any difference in your corals so far? Just I believe you switched to 150w MH?
Well here is an update, and I think very interesting. As I said earlier I removed a hystrix frag badly affected and a good friend put it in a relatively new tank with very few corals in it, under 2 AI blades. Literally overnight the blisters disappeared, over the last 10 days ot has recovered and has started to send out multiple new growth tips! In the time it has been in his tank I have been running the MH over my tank as I thought I would test the hypothesis that it was my LEDs. There hasn't been a great deal of change in my tank so far. But 2 days ago we decided to move the hystrix frag back to my tank under the MH and see what happens, anyway looking at the frag this morning the blisters have come back!!!
Any thoughts please, my therory of it being the lights seems to be wrong as this suggests its environmental?
 
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drawman

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Well here is an update, and I think very interesting. As I said earlier I removed a hystrix frag badly affected and a good friend put it in a relatively new tank with very few corals in it, under 2 AI blades. Literally overnight the blisters disappeared, over the last 10 days ot has recovered and has started to send out multiple new growth tips! In the time it has been in his tank I have been running the MH over my tank as I thought I would test the hypothesis that it was my LEDs. There hasn't been a great deal of change in my tank so far. But 2 days ago we decided to move the hystrix frag back to my tank under the MH and see what happens, anyway looking at the frag this morning the blisters have come back!!!
Any thoughts please, my therory of it being the lights seems to be wrong as this suggests its environmental?
It's just so tough to compare/contrast two different tanks and speculate the only difference between the two is lighting but seems like in your instance it isn't the lighting playing a big role.

Very cool/interesting that the results were so quick for you.
 

Hurricane Aquatics

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Well here is an update, and I think very interesting. As I said earlier I removed a hystrix frag badly affected and a good friend put it in a relatively new tank with very few corals in it, under 2 AI blades. Literally overnight the blisters disappeared, over the last 10 days ot has recovered and has started to send out multiple new growth tips! In the time it has been in his tank I have been running the MH over my tank as I thought I would test the hypothesis that it was my LEDs. There hasn't been a great deal of change in my tank so far. But 2 days ago we decided to move the hystrix frag back to my tank under the MH and see what happens, anyway looking at the frag this morning the blisters have come back!!!
Any thoughts please, my therory of it being the lights seems to be wrong as this suggests its environmental?

Cipro time. If it is fine in another system, it's absolutely bacterial.
 

Hurricane Aquatics

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But how would that cure the coral? Surely the coral has the bad bacteria on it or in it, thus taking it to the new tank?
Why would it recover ?

Search Cipro on the forum. There are plenty who have had similar issues. Cipro is for bacterial infection in humans and people are using it with great success on SPS and other corals.
 

justy

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Search Cipro on the forum. There are plenty who have had similar issues. Cipro is for bacterial infection in humans and people are using it with great success on SPS and other corals.
Yes I am aware of it, but never heard of anyone using it to specifically target blistering corals, I will donsome further reading, thanks.
 

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Yes I am aware of it, but never heard of anyone using it to specifically target blistering corals, I will donsome further reading, thanks.

Well blistering is caused by a bacterial infection. Bacteria can cause a litany of issues you can see and also a lot that you can't see.

Just think of having bacterial pneumonia. Your lungs are infected and they treat that with an antibiotic called Levaquin. So when you treat the system with Cipro, it will remove the bad bacteria in the system as well as the Acro.
 

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But how would that cure the coral? Surely the coral has the bad bacteria on it or in it, thus taking it to the new tank?
Why would it recover ?

@justy how long has this been going on?

I found a thread at Reef Central that's about 7 years old that you were posting in. Any back story?
 

justy

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@justy how long has this been going on?

I found a thread at Reef Central that's about 7 years old that you were posting in. Any back story?
In this tank about 6 months, yes i did have it about 7 years ago, and typically can't remember what happened other than it was just one acro I think and it just cleared up. Can't find any reference to it in my logs from that time.
 

Hurricane Aquatics

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In this tank about 6 months, yes i did have it about 7 years ago, and typically can't remember what happened other than it was just one acro I think and it just cleared up. Can't find any reference to it in my logs from that time.

Yeah no worries, just curious. Here is what "Acronis" said that was the cause. I don't really think it's correct, I still say bacterial, but always good to hear others thoughts as well.

Screenshot_20230625_131826_DuckDuckGo.jpg
 

Reefer Dan

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I'm sure we will work it out in time, thanks.
One random theory I have that is likely wrong… the coral trying to increase surface area for more light (but I imagine more would do that).
 

Reefer Dan

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Update: well pathogen is looking more likely. Had my fox flame get some goosebump like skin and now it looks like this.Possibly related. Bubbles continue on the pink lemonade.
 

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Hurricane Aquatics

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Not a fan of this idea, but just for clarity, you are proposing a cipro dip not treating the tank with cipro correct?

Well, here are my thoughts. Your tank has the bacteria in it. So why treat a frag and then just put it back in the same infested tank?

If your whole system is having this problem, I would treat the whole system.

It's your call and I've never done it. From everything I've heard and read, it's a safe treatment that I've never heard of anyone having issues with.
 

justy

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Well, here are my thoughts. Your tank has the bacteria in it. So why treat a frag and then just put it back in the same infested tank?

If your whole system is having this problem, I would treat the whole system.

It's your call and I've never done it. From everything I've heard and read, it's a safe treatment that I've never heard of anyone having issues with.
I still can't wrap my head around the fact that it is bacterial even though I considered this many times. If it was a bacterial issue, why would it be cured by placing in another tank? Surely the infection is still in the coral not just in the water column? I'm confused : )
 

Reefer Dan

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I still can't wrap my head around the fact that it is bacterial even though I considered this many times. If it was a bacterial issue, why would it be cured by placing in another tank? Surely the infection is still in the coral not just in the water column? I'm confused : )
I completely agree here. The only reason plausible reason I could think of regarding this is around concentration of the pathogen. As it replicates you would expect it to reinfect in the new tank.

The reason I anticipate it to be more about our system is I haven’t been able to find anything in scientific literature regarding this specifically, so I’m thinking it’s more about our artificial conditions but could be wrong. This is the closest I’ve found:

@justy do you have any Cyanobacteria mats growing in your tank?
 
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drawman

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I still can't wrap my head around the fact that it is bacterial even though I considered this many times. If it was a bacterial issue, why would it be cured by placing in another tank? Surely the infection is still in the coral not just in the water column? I'm confused : )
I completely agree here. The only reason plausible reason I could think of regarding this is around concentration of the pathogen. As it replicates you would expect it to reinfect in the new tank.

The reason I anticipate it to be more about our system is I haven’t been able to find anything in scientific literature regarding this specifically, so I’m thinking it’s more about our artificial conditions but could be wrong. This is the closest I’ve found:

@justy do you have any Cyanobacteria mats growing in your tank?
I think concentration of bacteria is a great way to look at it. Microbial communities/concentrations/biofilms will behave differently (at least this is the case with the human body and I think the systems can be compared in the sense of disease). Have different concentrations of bacteria in a given community can be enough to tip the balance towards disease. On top of that it could be viral a given virome may tip the balance towards disease as well.
 

Troylee

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To me it almost seems the flesh is growing faster than the skeleton… which is weird cause normally the skeleton will grow faster and cause issues on the tips etc.. the other thing that baffles me is you’d think these pieces would rtn or stn at first signs and they don’t.. :thinking-face:
 


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