Cryptic Zonal System

[dank.reefer]

The main reason that Pacific live rock is prefered that most of the corals and livestock we keep in our tanks comes from indopacific reef systems. The live rock from these regions has a more accurate biome for the organisms we keep. Also due to the way it is packaged and shipped there are generally far less undesirable hitchhiker's. Florida rock usually ship's submerged so the hitchhikers stay in the rock. Since Pacific rock ship's wrapped in wet paper the undesirables usually will jump out of the rock and go to the bottom of the box looking for water. Florida rock is usually quarried rock dropped in the ocean were as Pacific rock is usually actual reef rock. Quarried and man made rock is more dense and has less porosity for microorganisms to populate. There are many reasons why pacific rock is better too bad it is so hard to come by.

The best deals I have seen on the Aussie rock come from Live Rock n' Reef. Pretty pricey stuff though. They also offer some man made Fiji rock for a competitive price but those rocks are basicaly cement that has been submerged for a year or 2. IMO the Fiji man made may be useful in seeding a new tank though I wouldn't want to use them beyond that. They are not the same legendary Walt Smith Fiji Rocks of years past.

 

[davidm777]

I feel I’ve rambled, possibly drifted off topic, so I’ll stop here, and hope I addressed your questions. Feel free to ask more.

Not at all. I am starting to like the idea of an algee scrubber along with a cryptic zone. I will start looking into them.

 

[davidm777]

I also have been searching for reading material, can you please link the article you refer to about salem's doc article? Thanks.

Reef builders is a great resorce for information. Here the link.

DOC is The Most Important Parameter For A Healthy Reef Tank: Here’s a New Method to Manage It | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

In this article, I will provide an overview of my take on the current zeitgeist of reefing and explain why the entire industry is ignoring a critical aspect of coral care. I will explain what issues…

reefbuilders.com

 

[Subsea]

@davidm777
Outstanding read. It took a second pot of coffee to finish reading.

“In layman’s terms, whenever water on a reef becomes polluted with DOC, a small amount of “sleeper cell” bacteria that typically perform beneficial tasks for the coral become activated like a Manchurian candidate and begin to wreak havoc on the corals, leading to the development of disease. i.e., dirty water = dirty bacteria.”

“This also explains why so many people who keep their inorganic chemistry in perfect order are still experiencing issues with coral disease. Because many trace element programs require users to stop water changes, this would allow for the continual build-up of DOC. Therefore, even if all trace elements come back as perfect on an ICP test and all parameters are stable, chronic exposure to high levels of DOC will always trigger a pathogenic shift.”

Absolutely spot on with nutrient recycling as the mainstay of long term Reefing. At this point, I am going to stop reading this white paper. The above paragraph highlights for the Reefing community the limitation of ICP testing.

These next paragraphs highlight how sponges remove excess nutrients/DOC.

“Another critical aspect of sponges is their ability to house many beneficial bacterial partners. Some partners are excellent at sequestering phosphate. A recent study illustrated that nearly 40% of the phosphate found in sponges was contained in granules composed of polyphosphate. This mineralization allows waterborne phosphate to be locked away and removed from a system. This could theoretically help decrease PO4 in a system.”

“Additionally, many species of nitrifying bacteria call sponges home, including anaerobic bacteria capable of anammox. Annamox is a chemical process of ammonia oxidation where bacteria can convert ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrogen gas. This skips the typical nitrate conversion step and allows nitrogen to leave the aqueous system (this could effectively decrease the NO3 levels of our systems). [10]”

In further reading the white paper, under “how to monitor DOC”, I found a reference to using ORP

“Another potential way to monitor DOC at a moment’s notice is to utilize ORP. I looked for hours and could not find any papers that directly correlated ORP to the TOC or DOC of a system. However, extensive data illustrates that ORP negatively correlates with biochemical oxygen demand (BOD). It’s also well established that BOD values have a very close association with the TOC of a system. Thus, a logical extension can be made that because BOD = TOC and BOD is inverse to ORP, this must mean that ORP is inverse to TOC. [13]”

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Any insight on the above paragraph about using ORP as an indicator of DOC.

 

[dank.reefer]

@davidm777
Outstanding read. It took a second pot of coffee to finish reading.

“In layman’s terms, whenever water on a reef becomes polluted with DOC, a small amount of “sleeper cell” bacteria that typically perform beneficial tasks for the coral become activated like a Manchurian candidate and begin to wreak havoc on the corals, leading to the development of disease. i.e., dirty water = dirty bacteria.”

“This also explains why so many people who keep their inorganic chemistry in perfect order are still experiencing issues with coral disease. Because many trace element programs require users to stop water changes, this would allow for the continual build-up of DOC. Therefore, even if all trace elements come back as perfect on an ICP test and all parameters are stable, chronic exposure to high levels of DOC will always trigger a pathogenic shift.”

Absolutely spot on with nutrient recycling as the mainstay of long term Reefing. At this point, I am going to stop reading this white paper. The above paragraph highlights for the Reefing community the limitation of ICP testing.

These next paragraphs highlight how sponges remove excess nutrients/DOC.

“Another critical aspect of sponges is their ability to house many beneficial bacterial partners. Some partners are excellent at sequestering phosphate. A recent study illustrated that nearly 40% of the phosphate found in sponges was contained in granules composed of polyphosphate. This mineralization allows waterborne phosphate to be locked away and removed from a system. This could theoretically help decrease PO4 in a system.”

“Additionally, many species of nitrifying bacteria call sponges home, including anaerobic bacteria capable of anammox. Annamox is a chemical process of ammonia oxidation where bacteria can convert ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrogen gas. This skips the typical nitrate conversion step and allows nitrogen to leave the aqueous system (this could effectively decrease the NO3 levels of our systems). [10]”

In further reading the white paper, under “how to monitor DOC”, I found a reference to using ORP

“Another potential way to monitor DOC at a moment’s notice is to utilize ORP. I looked for hours and could not find any papers that directly correlated ORP to the TOC or DOC of a system. However, extensive data illustrates that ORP negatively correlates with biochemical oxygen demand (BOD). It’s also well established that BOD values have a very close association with the TOC of a system. Thus, a logical extension can be made that because BOD = TOC and BOD is inverse to ORP, this must mean that ORP is inverse to TOC. [13]”

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Any insight on the above paragraph about using ORP as an indicator of DOC.

This is Great stuff I have not fully read the artical referenced here but I have seen plenty of people who are die hard ICP guys having struggles. There is a lot more at play in our liftle oceans than whag we realize sometimes. I think some of this new form of reefing where folks are trying to circumvent natural process through synthetic means, can cause issues that maybe just a simple water change or refuguim/cryptic zone could remedy. Not to mention the overall expense that it adds to the hobby to provide less reliable results.

 

[Shooter6]

I have also been kicking the idea of a cryptic fuge around for my next build. The main questions that I have not seen answered here are weather they are plumbed off the main drain or are people feeding them with a loop from the return pump? Then the other question is wether or not anyone is running a cryptic zone along with a macro refugium or is this just a redundant overkill?

Mine is the fist chamber off my main drain.

 

[dank.reefer]

Mine is the fist chamber off my main drain.

With or without socks/roller?

 

[Shooter6]

With or without socks/roller?

No socks, no pads or rollers. I did socks and pads in the past, but I'd rather let the pods , sponges and across feed. I dose live phytoplankton every other day as well though, so they feed on the dissolved organics, which then are consumed by pods,corals sponges etc.

 

[VintageReefer]

No socks, no pads or rollers. I did socks and pads in the past, but I'd rather let the pods , sponges and across feed. I dose live phytoplankton every other day as well though, so they feed on the dissolved organics, which then are consumed by pods,corals sponges etc.

Same here

Except I historically have never used phyto. I started this week and am on my second dose. Not out of a need, more from a curiosity

 

[Timfish]

Hey Tim,
Thanks for understanding the OBSESSION IS REAL and shooting those videos this way.
Why would you preffer Pacific live rock? I mean, I would prefer it myself but just because I am in San Diego.

You're welcome!

Because changes in microbiomes can have not only species specific but also genotype specific responses. It seems to me the closer we can match the conditions a coral is normally found in, and with, the better the chances of keeping it healthy for the decades or centuries they are capable of living.