Dinoflagellate troubles

flyfish4trout · Jul 8, 2012

Well I am about to through in the towel on this tank due to the dinoflagellate problem that I have. I thought that I had this under control but I had to travel for work for the last week and came home to this.

Before I left I had just finished with 7 days of H2O2 treatment. I cleaned up the tank per my normal weekly routine today including a massive round of turkey basting and now it looks like this.

I have blacked out the tank, and I am now going to try another round of H2O2 plus 3 or 4 days blackout, plus raised pH. I am open to others suggestions and welcome them. These dinoflagellates appear to be unstoppable. I have never had a problem like this before, maybe I should through in the towel and start this tank over? I will post some pictures when I am done with this round of treatment.

Salinity 1.025
Temp 78
Ca 420
Alk 8.5 dKH
Mag 1250
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
P 0 (crappy liquid test kit)

Top off with RO/DI

let me know what you think.

thanks

ColaAddict · Jul 8, 2012

Starve it to death! Don't feed the tank and run GFO. Zero out the phosphates and that should do the trick. Ont trust your phos test kit

Sasquatch · Jul 8, 2012

I don't think its dino, have a google at...Callithamnion aka Cotton Candy Algae

ColaAddict · Jul 8, 2012

What eats those? Starve it anyway

chris13115 · Jul 8, 2012

hermit crabs, for cleaning stuff, hermit crabs do it. it itll clean it up.

chris13115 · Jul 8, 2012

i would also try a fox face or filefish. butterflies will too but butterflies are pain in the ***

flyfish4trout · Jul 8, 2012

I run GFO all the time, switch it out every month with the carbon, I forgot to put that in the first post. Also all the hermits died during the first outbreak about 6 weeks ago along with 3/4 of the snails. I am an extremely light feeder, twice a week very light bio-load as well. I will check on the cotton candy algae. Thanks for the comments everyone.

montethemoster · Jul 8, 2012

Did you start with dry rock and if so where did you get it? I'm just asking because I started with dry rock and have also had dino problems and wonder if it is phosphate associated due to the dry rock.

Scott S · Jul 8, 2012

Just a few past observations from yrs past...
The only time I have ever encountered what your seeing is from "stagnant" tanks.. Ie... Tanks with very low water flow, parameters WAY off ( just because your test kit says so... doesn't mean it's correct) or from overfeeding a food high in phosphates... Another cause is also a shift into the red zone from old bulbs..

You mentioned all your hermits died the first round... what other livestock do you have OTHER than fish.. do you have a decent Pod population in the tank or are they missing too?
Another observation is how the tank looks very still.. what powerheads are you using? What type of flow do you have in the tank ?
You left for a week .. Unless you or whomever watched over the tank cleaned it extremely well I am not noticing any coraline growth in the tank.. To me this is a very good indicater that either your ALK or CA s off and you need to confirm your test kits.. check the exp. AND have a local LFS test your water as well.. If your parameters were/are that perfect you should have coraline growing everywhere...

It would also help if you listed the equipment and additives your using, live rock, sand, ect......

Scott.

Troylee · Jul 8, 2012

I had that one time and it was due to bad di resin... Worth a shot...

mcarroll · Jul 8, 2012

flyfish4trout said:
Well I am about to through in the towel on this tank due to the dinoflagellate problem that I have. I thought that I had this under control but I had to travel for work for the last week and came home to this.

[pics snipped]

I have blacked out the tank, and I am now going to try another round of H2O2 plus 3 or 4 days blackout, plus raised pH. I am open to others suggestions and welcome them. These dinoflagellates appear to be unstoppable. I have never had a problem like this before, maybe I should through in the towel and start this tank over? I will post some pictures when I am done with this round of treatment.

Salinity 1.025
Temp 78
Ca 420
Alk 8.5 dKH
Mag 1250
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
P 0 (crappy liquid test kit)

Top off with RO/DI

let me know what you think.

thanks

First I would raise alk to around 4.0 meq/L (around 11 dKH) and Mg could be raised to about 1350-1400 ppm. Corals will be happier due to more stable pH and more carbonates to make skeleton with, and there's a chance the algae will be less happy.

Second, your pics looks nothing like anything I've seen referred to as dinoflagellates. Nor does it look like any of the pictures on Google for Cotton Candy algae - all examples there were very red in color. Plus Cotton Candy looks fuzzy, but still branchy and defined - your stuff almost looks amorphous. Did you put a Photoshop blur on all the algae?

Does this stuff have any color in person? How about consistency when you touch it? Slimy, leathery, rough, hard, etc?

Peroxide might do the trick again, but there's got to be a reason this stuff came back so fast after you eliminated it the first time - I would start looking for that reason. If you can find it, this stuff will likely disappear on its own. If you think there's any chance that it's algae (any green or red tint would suggest this) you could try something like AlgaeFix as a spot treatment just to knock the stuff back and let you get a hold on whatever is feeding it. (Used it on a number of tanks in bad shape and it really does seem to target only algae...no other effects in any of those tanks except that the algae died off quickly.

BTW, what's the history on this tank? How old? How long of a cycle? How long did it take to get all those frags in it?

I hope this helps - good luck!

-Matt

lakeviewink · Jul 8, 2012

Have your corals always been bleached or did this happen as a result? I agree with a few things said already, no coralline is suspicious and how old and what kind of bulbs/ lighting could have something to do with this and flow, flow, flow........

flyfish4trout · Jul 9, 2012

Scott S said:
Just a few past observations from yrs past...
The only time I have ever encountered what your seeing is from "stagnant" tanks.. Ie... Tanks with very low water flow, parameters WAY off ( just because your test kit says so... doesn't mean it's correct) or from overfeeding a food high in phosphates... Another cause is also a shift into the red zone from old bulbs..

You mentioned all your hermits died the first round... what other livestock do you have OTHER than fish.. do you have a decent Pod population in the tank or are they missing too?
Another observation is how the tank looks very still.. what powerheads are you using? What type of flow do you have in the tank ?
You left for a week .. Unless you or whomever watched over the tank cleaned it extremely well I am not noticing any coraline growth in the tank.. To me this is a very good indicater that either your ALK or CA s off and you need to confirm your test kits.. check the exp. AND have a local LFS test your water as well.. If your parameters were/are that perfect you should have coraline growing everywhere...

It would also help if you listed the equipment and additives your using, live rock, sand, ect......

Scott.

This is a 50 gallon rimless with 200 gph return from the sump, and two MP-10s. I thought the same thing about the test kits and purchased new Ca, Mg, Alk, and Nitrate kits, both sets read virtually the same. I also checked my TDS meter with a YSI meter from work and they both read 1. This tank is lit with a 6 bulb 24 inch ATI sunpower fixture (six month old bulbs) other equipment includes a Super Reef Octopus 1000 int skimmer, dosing pumps for Ca and Alk (standard 2 part) although the calcium unit has been off for months, phosban reactor for the GFO. I also have a shallow sand bed. I use reef crystals salt which is the same salt I used in the last two reef tanks that I had. I am down to four small fish two cardinals, a true perc, and a 6 line wrasse. I feed the fish a couple of times a week pellets and occasionally mysis. Because I don't feed frequently the pod population is relatively low due to the six line hunting all day. I also have a 6 inch maxima clam, some LPS from the last tank that I transferred into this tank. A lot of the coriline has died off after being covered by this layer of snot. I have had fish only and/or reef tanks on and off again for 15 years and never a problem like this, usually good old fashion patients and responsible husbandry does the trick every time.

Troylee said:
I had that one time and it was due to bad di resin... Worth a shot...

I will switch the DI resin out, its is definitely worth a shot.

montethemoster said:
Did you start with dry rock and if so where did you get it? I'm just asking because I started with dry rock and have also had dino problems and wonder if it is phosphate associated due to the dry rock.

I did start with about 50% dry rock from a local fish store and 50% from a well established tank. I have been seriously thinking of removing the former from the system and replacing it with some live rock for the last two months. This is the only tank I have ever started with the dry rock and i am not a big fan so far.

Thanks for everyone's comments I appreciate you all taking the time to chime in.

flyfish4trout · Jul 9, 2012

mcarroll said:
First I would raise alk to around 4.0 meq/L (around 11 dKH) and Mg could be raised to about 1350-1400 ppm. Corals will be happier due to more stable pH and more carbonates to make skeleton with, and there's a chance the algae will be less happy.

Second, your pics looks nothing like anything I've seen referred to as dinoflagellates. Nor does it look like any of the pictures on Google for Cotton Candy algae - all examples there were very red in color. Plus Cotton Candy looks fuzzy, but still branchy and defined - your stuff almost looks amorphous. Did you put a Photoshop blur on all the algae?

Does this stuff have any color in person? How about consistency when you touch it? Slimy, leathery, rough, hard, etc?

Peroxide might do the trick again, but there's got to be a reason this stuff came back so fast after you eliminated it the first time - I would start looking for that reason. If you can find it, this stuff will likely disappear on its own. If you think there's any chance that it's algae (any green or red tint would suggest this) you could try something like AlgaeFix as a spot treatment just to knock the stuff back and let you get a hold on whatever is feeding it. (Used it on a number of tanks in bad shape and it really does seem to target only algae...no other effects in any of those tanks except that the algae died off quickly.

BTW, what's the history on this tank? How old? How long of a cycle? How long did it take to get all those frags in it?

I hope this helps - good luck!

-Matt

I have been trying to get the alk up but for some reason I am having difficulty keeping it near the 4 range, I am wondering if it may be precipitating out with phosphorous? I will give the mag a bump up. This snot basically has no color, it may be slightly brown otherwise it closely resembles the pictures. It is very slimy. As for the tank it has actually been running for almost 10 months now. Normal cycle, if I remember correctly it was about 8 weeks before I put anything into it. I really never killed this problem off all the way the first time that I tried to treat it, there were some very small pockets of this material left when I finished the last round of h2o2 dosing. I thought it was well under control and I have kept at trying to eradicate the remaining material with a toothbrush siphon and water changes.

I think you are dead on with finding the source. I am really leaning in the direction of removing the original dry rock that I started the tank with.

lakeviewink said:
Have your corals always been bleached or did this happen as a result? I agree with a few things said already, no coralline is suspicious and how old and what kind of bulbs/ lighting could have something to do with this and flow, flow, flow........

Bleaching was a result of the H2o2 treatment. the SPS just have not recovered since that treatment.

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated.

montethemoster · Jul 9, 2012

Well all the best...I can relate to how frustrating it can be. If you decide to remove the dry rock or try something else please post and update how it is going.

gmoney243 · Jul 9, 2012

Its the sixline wrasse!! Always blame the sixline :banghead:

Seriously though that stinks I would try raising ph/alk with kalkwasser in your top off. Couldn't hurt to try and has been known to cure dinos. But it doesn't look like dinos to me. You could also try a product like microbacter7 or waste away. They can break down and help get rid of nuisance algaes and bacterias.

Sent from my Vortex using Tapatalk 2

mcarroll · Jul 10, 2012

If you never really got the problem licked in enough days to cause that level of stress (bleaching) to your corals, I would be very tempted to switch to a purpouse built remedy like Chemi Clean for this treatment.

It's the same class of antimicrobial as H2O2 (an oxidizer) but designed to work in a day, yielding much lower stress for the animals. (Just follow the package directions to a tee.)

-Matt

mcarroll · Jul 10, 2012

Other than the unsightliness, were there any other apparent side effects of this stuff before you began treating for it?

After Googling around some more, I'm almost sure that slimey residue is a bacterial bloom...Which should mean that it shouldn't hurt anything as along as it's not (e.g.) blanketing a coral. The other likely option is sponge formation, but I doubt it in this case.

Still no change from your present course and my above recommendation except that I might add a bacterial treatment like Microbact7 to get better bacteria to outcompete whatever that is growing on the rocks for whatever nutrients it's using. Wait for this until after your oxidizer treatment though.

-Matt

flyfish4trout · Jul 12, 2012

mcarroll said:
Other than the unsightliness, were there any other apparent side effects of this stuff before you began treating for it?

After Googling around some more, I'm almost sure that slimey residue is a bacterial bloom...Which should mean that it shouldn't hurt anything as along as it's not (e.g.) blanketing a coral. The other likely option is sponge formation, but I doubt it in this case.

Still no change from your present course and my above recommendation except that I might add a bacterial treatment like Microbact7 to get better bacteria to outcompete whatever that is growing on the rocks for whatever nutrients it's using. Wait for this until after your oxidizer treatment though.

-Matt

The slime really did not seem to be harming the corals, it has now gotten to the point where it is starting to grow so fast that it can engulf the corals if I don't stay up with brushing and basting (which is what happened while I was out of town).

I think you may be correct about bacteria, I originally thought that it was a bacterial bloom as well but was swayed to dino's base on how this looks when it first starts to emerge.

I have abandoned the h202 as you suggested (ran 4 days) and turned on the lights after a 3 day dark period. To my surprise the snot is exactly the same, no physically observable change at all. Only now my sps look worse if that's even possible.

It is now time for drastic action, before this thing totally crashes, so I am replacing the RO system sediment filter, carbon block, and DI resin (per Troylee's recommendation) and removing all of the dry rock that I started with. I think that these are the only two elements that could be left that could leach some kind of nutrient for this bacteria or whatever it is to feed on. This material first emerged on the dry rock, so my bet is that this is leaching something.

I found a some really nice established live rock, that I am picking up today. Hopefully this will kick this problem.