Do what I say not what I do...

[Sisterlimonpot]

Your entire premise assumes that when a successful reefers say, "Don't follow what I do," they’re intentionally setting viewers or readers up for failure. Maybe that’s not the case.

What’s important to consider is the current climate of our hobby. Much of what is promoted as the "best approach" is driven by marketing, designed to make you spend more money and overcomplicate your journey. These days, very little is black and white, largely due to misinformation surrounding marketing.

You hear "Don't dose trace elements" and assume, "Why does he want me to fail?" Instead, you might consider, "Dosing individual trace elements is largely unnecessary for success." In fact, you could go further and say that trace element dosing is more about fine-tuning an already successful reef tank and reserved for later on in your journey. You wouldn’t build the roof of a house before laying the foundation.

There’s a lot of nuance that might be overlooked or left unexplained in a video. The assumption that coral loss is due to a trace element deficiency is a stretch. Similarly, warning against dosing trace elements in a new tank could prevent a new reefer a lot of heartache.

Speaking for myself (not Marc), if someone were to start dosing individual trace elements, their tank would need to be consuming more trace elements than what is already replenished through water changes, food, and other sources. I’d go so far as to say that dosing early in a reef tank’s development has little benefit, and those resources could be better allocated elsewhere.

I occasionally send in water samples for ICP testing, and from firsthand experience, I can tell you that having trace elements at recommended levels doesn’t necessarily equate to a healthy reef. I would say my tank is healthy even though trace elements are no where near the recommendations. It might enhance coral coloration slightly, but that doesn’t mean everyone needs to chase perfect trace levels.

I do understand that your post is broad. One key takeaway is that relying solely on videos to build a knowledge foundation is like, (to borrow from the bible), building your foundation on sand. Videos are primarily created for entertainment, often monetized and/or self agrandizing for the creator. Information is presented in fragments rather than as a clear roadmap for success. The disclaimer, "Do as I say, not as I do," is a valuable one to heed.

Perhaps your expectation is that these videos should be purely educational when, in reality, they should be viewed as entertainment rather than a foolproof guide. Is Marc protecting his reputation by ensuring he doesn’t lead the least experienced viewer astray? Maybe. Who knows?

 

[Faurek]

The big point with traces is that unless you are doing really big water changes yes, you need to dose, but and big but here, you can't test on a cheap. Yes I have traces on a bottle that I sometimes use, but during one of my experiments I killed a tank with copper over 3/4 months, was dosing freshwater fertilizer with no chemical filtration or water changes. Yes it's an extreme case, but the only way I would know it would be weekly Icp's and I refuse to spend the amount I know some people spend on ICP tests. So I understand that people don't want to give the incentive to just dose without testing and I don't either dispite the fact that I like to experiment.

 

[Reefer Matt]

I do understand that your post is broad. One key takeaway is that relying solely on videos to build a knowledge foundation is like, (to borrow from the bible), building your foundation on sand. Videos are primarily created for entertainment, often monetized and/or self agrandizing for the creator.

I don’t suggest anyone only follow yt channels for advice either, and I have a channel! Lol. Social media is mostly marketing. Though I don’t market products myself, and am a nobody in reefing, there are those who wield a strong influence on others. I can understand the concern about misinformation, but I don’t think it was done with malice in this case. Marc is very humble and honest (at least with my brief interactions with him), and he may have misspoke or contradicted something he previously said. We all do that as we learn, and often don’t tell others we changed our mind.

 

[klc]

I regularly see tanks that belong to members of our local Arizona club AZFRAG, some of them are maintained using the "moonshiners" method while some are maintained using regular water changes. I honestly can't say that either method is any better than the other, and one has to take into consideration the other husbandry methods that a particular keeper employs on a regular basis that may or may not contribute to their success.

I've seen sisterlimonpot's tank in person and can attest it is a fine example of a successful sps tank, he replenishes his trace elements with his own continuous water change system. On the flipside, I also regularly see the sps tank of another of our club members (he's not on r2r) that is mind blowingly beautiful and IS maintained with the Captiv8 method. But what we don't see is all of the other things that they do/add that contributes to their success.

In my sps tank, I dose Isol8 MT every other day because I'm lazy and don't like to change water any more often than I have to. I can say that over the last few months the corals DO have better color since I've been using it. But even that could have been achieved by changing more water more often.

I agree with sisterlimonpot regarding Marc's tank and his videos, he has been an inspiration to many of us going back a lot of years now. I think he is as transparent as he can be with the information he provides in his videos.

I don't think anyone should base their husbandry techniques on something they read here on R2R, something they watched on YouTube or something a LFS told them. This hobby can be very complicated at times, and it should be accepted that there is typically more than one way to accomplish something. Unfortunately what you read on a forum is often times just opinion, and what you watch on YT often times has an underlying purpose that may or may not be apparent to the casual viewer. I take things I see on YT as strictly entertainment, the same as I do for this website.

 

[ScottF]

I think we got away from what I was originally trying to say. It often seems like people equate a lack of experience with stupidity or incompetence.

In this example, Mark clearly stated that Moonshiners is completely new to him. He had no experience dosing individual trace elements based on ICP testing. When it comes to this specific thing, he is a beginner. Then he emphatically states that the Moonshiners method is not for beginners.

What in his decades of reefing experience makes him better at reading a spreadsheet and measuring liquids? Sure, his experience may let him see signs that something is not happy before an inexperienced person would, but that is true for anything.

For some reason that struck a chord with me.

 

[exnisstech]

Maybe he was referring to people being new to the hobby in general not new to moonshiners? I can see that being true. I've not been in a long time, 9+ yrs and it sounds extremely complicated to me.

 

[ScottF]

Maybe he was referring to people being new to the hobby in general not new to moonshiners? I can see that being true. I've not been in a long time, 9+ yrs and it sounds extremely complicated to me.

Absolutely, but that is my point. Do your 9+ years of reefing make you more capable of reading a spreadsheet and putting drops of liquid from little bottles in your tank? It's a new skill that you would need to learn.

I don't specifically do Moonshiners, but I've done some research. As I understand it, every month you take the results of an ICP test and plug them into a spreadsheet. That spreadsheet will tell you how much of what elements you need to dose to your tank to bring them up to the recommended value.

Then you get out your little bottles and dose what it tells you to dose. Then you wait a month (or two weeks or two months or whatever) and you get another ICP test done and repeat.

Essentially you are topping off your trace elements periodically based on ICP tests. There are variations of this like the Captiv8 method where you create a "master solution" based on ICP tests and dose daily with a dosing pump.

I just don't see how years of reefing experience make you more qualified to use Excel and measure liquids. My issue isn't with Mark specifically. It's the general attitude that people aren't capable unless they've been reefing for decades.

 

[exnisstech]

It can be very over whelming to people new to the hobby regardless of how simple it may seem to you. I think that is all he meant but that's just my take, maybe he does think everyone is stupid

EDIT: Just discussing trace elements can be overwhelming. Reading a spread sheet probably not for most but I don't even know how to make a spread sheet .

 

[Fish Think Pink]

... WOW... what a thread... I find it interesting that instead of just asking someone what they meant, an entire thread bounces back and forth on perhaps what was meant...

Over the past couple of years, I've had the pleasure to meet Marc on multiple occasions due to his DFWMAS hobby club involvement, and truly he is one of the most genuine, caring, authentic persons I've ever met. I'd suggest if Marc "struck a cord" with you over something he said and that is still ringing with you, then just reach out and ask him 1:1 to get that answered and so you can move past it. Marc has lots of ways you can reach out directly to him, he's a busy guy, but he always does his best to circle around and answer whatever about whatever.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I think we got away from what I was originally trying to say. It often seems like people equate a lack of experience with stupidity or incompetence.

I see.

I personally chase pH. I went as far as to develop a stand alone controller that communicates with my apex to monitor some sensors and control a few peristaltic pumps to dose kalk, concentrated brine and another to remove the sum of both. Once understood, the procedure is rather simple and any reefer regardless of time spent in the hobby can perform the tasks. However that doesn't mean they should do what I do. I tell anyone willing to listen, it's not for the beginner. That doesn't mean I consider them dim. That just means the majority of tanks out there will not benefit, in fact, might cause more issues if they follow in my footsteps.

 

[X-37B]

Well interesting. 30+ doing this.
I have tried to help and will only do it by dm and still most won't listen. Maybe I'm just to old, lol.
Many make it way harder than it needs to be, imo.
I run a carx on my main system, no controller or ph probe, and 2 part on my 2 other.
I dose ez trace which has 6 components going on 8+ years now. I add it to my ato's so it gets dosed anytime the ato kicks on.
I would not run a system without it.
My main system is acro's.
I do WC at 10% every 2-3 months.
I prefer close to NSW parameters with each one having a range.
Po4<.1
No3<5
Heavy In/Out.
Check out my build thread/Threads if you are interested.
Dm me with any questions.

 

[00W]

Scott-
Goodness what a thread.
Usually I won't read through the entirety of a thread like this but I did and I don't understand any of it.
I feel the hobby is just becoming too complicated for me and it saddens me greatly.
I read up on moonshiners but after a minute and a half I stopped. Just too complicated and I don't have time working 14 hours a day 5 days a week.
I've been doing this for 35 years and I still do it the same way with slightly upgraded equipment.
I give advice no one cares about and only answer questions I know the answer to.
I don't automate anything.
I don't watch you tube,videos or read instruction manuals.
I change water in 5 gallon buckets and the most complicated piece of equipment I have is a wall timer I bought that I can't program so I use one of those ones with pins in it instead.
I change water once a week in 4 different tanks by hand and stopped testing a while ago.
I do things my own way and it works for me.
R2R is my only resource, where my friends are but I try to give as little advice no one will follow anyways.
I can't answer your question for you here but I can say that most of us just do the best that we can.
I hope that you find peace with this here.
Good vibes.

 

[ScottF]

I went back and read most of this again. I think I came on way to strong in the beginning in part because my cat was sleeping next to my keyboard and kept rolling over on it and posting before I had a chance to make my thoughts coherent. Then people replied before I had a chance to fix it.

My aim was never to attack Marc. I was using his video as one example because I watched that video recently and it stuck with me.

I've worked in IT for 25 years and I'm as guilty as anyone of seeing the worst in "users" at times and thinking they would all be better off if they just joined the Amish community and never used a computer again.

I was just trying to make the point that we shouldn't lump everyone together based our worst experiences with people and a lot "beginners" are probably just as capable of trying new things as a person with decades of experience.

Maybe that wasn't what Marc was doing in that instant. Maybe it was. Only he really knows. It doesn't really matter. Again, this isn't specifically about Marc. His video just struck a chord and made me think, "Why shouldn't someone new to the hobby try this if it would help them be more successful?"

 

[melev]

I got back into the hobby about six months age. I had a reef tank from around 2008 to 2014, but back then I had to rely on reef central and the advise of my LFSs. Now I have watched hundreds of hours of youtube and I've asked a bunch of questions on these forums.

Recently I watched video from Melev's reef where he had coral colonies crashing because he was lacking in trace elements. Prior to that I know I've heard him say, "I guarantee that the solution to your problem isn't going to be found in a bottle". Now he is saying he is doing the Moonshiners method, but according to him this is definately not for beginners.

Why is it not for beginners? You have corals dying because you are not supplying them with needed elements, but people that haven't been reefing for 20 years shouldn't supply them with needed elements because they can't so something that you are doing for the first time? Your vast experience in reefing qualifies you to read a graduated cylinder more accurately than someone just starting out?

I also just watched a video where the guy that made the most popular video on anemone tanks just said all of his anemones died every time he bought one. I'm not sure how relevant that is to this topic , but it was dose of the reality of marketing in this industry.

My point is that people should be giving good advice. Tell people what workks based on your experiences. Not what you think the stupidest person in the world will can handle. Don't just parrot something that you heard someone else say without knowing that it works because you want to be helpful. I admire your desire to help, but in my opion this is one of the biggest contributers of bad advice.

Now I preface

Hi Scott. You have mentioned a few things incorrectly.

I’ve never used Moonshiners method of dosing.

My reef took a hit a few years ago, and it took me a couple of weeks and five or six ICP tests to determine that my reef was seriously lacking potassium. Once I determined that, I dosed ELEMENTALS K by Fauna Marin, which is potassium. I dosed three liters over a that many weeks, and nothing else. My reef turned around, and was on the right track again.

I gave a presentation about this specific topic at MACNA thereafter.

I did try out Reef Blueprint for about six months, dosing specific trace elements that showed up lacking in multiple ICP test results.

I do not recommend going down the rabbit hole of dosing specific trace elements and ICP testing for newbie hobbyists. They should learn the basics. Trying to truly dial in water parameters element by element is costly and best suited for advanced hobbyists that want to take reefing to a new level. A newbie will more than likely become frustrated and abandon the hobby due to the complexities, cost, and amount of time/effort involved.

 

[melev]

Here’s that video.

 

[Faurek]

Don't think it's because it's hard to read a spreadsheet, more like if you get signs that it's going south you are able to read it and understand what you are doing in the first place. Seems expensive and unnecessary af for most people, but each to its own.

 

[Dburr1014]

I think being simple as a new reefer is the best way to go.
That means to me, water changes, manual ATO, ect. This way, as a newbie, you are interacting with the system and learning how it works(and don't work).

As the journey progress, we tend to get more complicated. Auto ATO, or/and controllers, ect.

When it comes to internet, believe half of what you read and none of what you see. It could be way out of context from your journey or the posters.
If I even think what a poster says works I will only do a 1/4 what they say and see how the systems responds.

 

[Dburr1014]

Hi Scott. You have mentioned a few things incorrectly.

I’ve never used Moonshiners method of dosing.

My reef took a hit a few years ago, and it took me a couple of weeks and five or six ICP tests to determine that my reef was seriously lacking potassium. Once I determined that, I dosed ELEMENTALS K by Fauna Marin, which is potassium. I dosed three liters over a that many weeks, and nothing else. My reef turned around, and was on the right track again.

I gave a presentation about this specific topic at MACNA thereafter.

I did try out Reef Blueprint for about six months, dosing specific trace elements that showed up lacking in multiple ICP test results.

I do not recommend going down the rabbit hole of dosing specific trace elements and ICP testing for newbie hobbyists. They should learn the basics. Trying to truly dial in water parameters element by element is costly and best suited for advanced hobbyists that want to take reefing to a new level. A newbie will more than likely become frustrated and abandon the hobby due to the complexities, cost, and amount of time/effort involved.

I wondered if that was you.

Glad to see you on here and looking forward to more of your posts.

 

[melev]

I wondered if that was you.

Glad to see you on here and looking forward to more of your posts.

I’m rarely on the forums these days. There are only so many hours in the day for me, and I have a lot keeping me busy. Between running CORAL magazine and my weekly YouTube streams, taking care of my customers (from my website), taking care of my aquariums and my dog…

Anyway, it was nice to pop in and add my two cents since it was about my two cents.

 

[ScottF]

Hi Scott. You have mentioned a few things incorrectly.

I’ve never used Moonshiners method of dosing.

My reef took a hit a few years ago, and it took me a couple of weeks and five or six ICP tests to determine that my reef was seriously lacking potassium. Once I determined that, I dosed ELEMENTALS K by Fauna Marin, which is potassium. I dosed three liters over a that many weeks, and nothing else. My reef turned around, and was on the right track again.

I gave a presentation about this specific topic at MACNA thereafter.

I did try out Reef Blueprint for about six months, dosing specific trace elements that showed up lacking in multiple ICP test results.

I do not recommend going down the rabbit hole of dosing specific trace elements and ICP testing for newbie hobbyists. They should learn the basics. Trying to truly dial in water parameters element by element is costly and best suited for advanced hobbyists that want to take reefing to a new level. A newbie will more than likely become frustrated and abandon the hobby due to the complexities, cost, and amount of time/effort involved.

Thank you for responding and pointing out what I got wrong. Again this wasn't specifically about you, but I guess I did call you out specifically and I appreciate you taking the time to respond. It was more of what I perceived as a general trend from youtubers to scoff at the ability of newer reefers.

Again you say it's not for newbies. I think my problem with that statement is probably what we define as newbies. If someone just setup a tank a month ago and is still trying to grasp the absolute basics of reefing than I agree that person probably should not be dosing based on ICP testing. They need to establish a foundation of knowledge that they can build on.

I guess in my mind I was thinking that there is so much to learn about so many topics with reefing that someone who has been reefing for a year and has a thriving reef tank could still be called a newbie. When someone refers to a beginner in reefing, I'm not thinking of the person that just mixed their first batch of saltwater.

Once they have the basics down and have done a ton of research, I still think that the best time to learn and fine tune something like this is before they have $10,000+ in livestock residing in their tank, but that is just my opinion. Hopefully we will learn from our mistakes if we screw it up.