Everything in Reef Chemistry is a Simplification

[Dan_P]

Perhaps but I think that’s also part of Randy’s point about oversimplification.

I agree that the notion of aquarium stability/biological stability/chemical stability falls in the realm of oversimplification, or maybe a new category lower down, to capture how truly empty of meaning this notion is.

 

[Dan_P]

Perhaps but I think that’s also part of Randy’s point about oversimplification.

I have a new category for terms like aquarium stability or biological stability: semantic black holes (SBH) These things are more damaging than junk terms (JT’s). They are an informal concept describing a situation , conversation or text where words lose all fixed meaning.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I’m starting to wonder if I unintentionally touched a nerve with the phrase “biological stability.”

 

[Dan_P]

I’m starting to wonder if I unintentionally touched a nerve with the phrase “biological stability.”

Nah, technobabble in general can spark lively conversations. There is nothing special about biological stability.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Nah, technobabble in general can spark lively conversations. There is nothing special about biological stability.

Fair enough. Perhaps biological balance and ecological maturity are more appropriate terms.

That may be a discussion for another thread though, I think we’ve probably wandered far enough from Randy’s original topic.

 

[BeanAnimal]

It depends but I think that discussion would take us well beyond the scope of Randy’s original topic.

Fair enough. Perhaps biological balance and ecological maturity are more appropriate terms.

That may be a discussion for another thread though, I think we’ve probably wandered far enough from Randy’s original topic.

It depends" is not an answer.
"Fair enough" is not a concession when the next sentence introduces two more undefined terms.

Repeatedly introducing unsupportable terms and frameworks and then apologizing for the derails is not unintentional, it is performative remorse. The same abstract terms and fog keep finding their way into a lot of threads lately.

"Biological balance" and "ecological maturity" are not more appropriate terms. They are the same abstract problem with different labels. None of them are defined or measurable, and none answer the three questions that are still open.

 

[Dan_P]

Fair enough. Perhaps biological balance and ecological maturity are more appropriate terms.

That may be a discussion for another thread though, I think we’ve probably wandered far enough from Randy’s original topic.

In the context of an aquarium, terms taken from scientific disciplines to convey vague feelings and ideas about ill defined conditions of an aquarium are a form of intellectual oversimplification, though I think misinformation is probably closer to end result sometimes.

I think this discussion is in perfect alignment of Randy’s intent. So, don’t slip away just as things are getting interesting. Let’s explore this further by figuring out how to observe and measure ecological maturity and describe what data tells us such a condition is a desirable condition or end point for an aquarium. We can come back and perform the same triage on biological balance and stability next.

 

[BeanAnimal]

In the context of an aquarium, terms taken from scientific disciplines to convey vague feelings and ideas about ill defined conditions of an aquarium are a form of intellectual oversimplification, though I think misinformation is probably closer to end result sometimes.

I think this discussion is in perfect alignment of Randy’s intent. So, don’t slip away just as things are getting interesting. Let’s explore this further by figuring out how to observe and measure ecological maturity and describe what data tells us such a condition is a desirable condition or end point for an aquarium. We can come back and perform the same triage on biological balance and stability next.

I would argue that we blow past oversimplification when the same unsupportable terms are introduced thread after thread over several years and every challenge is met by deflection or a replacement term. It is then just misinformation by repetition and it has a cost to the hobby and the forum.

 

[Dan_P]

I would argue that we blow past oversimplification when the same unsupportable terms are introduced thread after thread over several years and every challenge is met by deflection or a replacement term. It is then just misinformation by repetition and it has a cost to the hobby and the forum.

Yep, the simplification scale needs to go lower and include the “semantic black hole”.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The semantic black hole probably sits below oversimplification on that scale. Oversimplification at least starts with something real. A semantic black hole has nothing underneath it to simplify from. Neither serve the same purpose as the simplification that Randy is describing and I think that is key. One serves a useful purpose the others create confusion or abstraction instead of providing clarification.

 

[Dan_P]

The semantic black hole probably sits below oversimplification on that scale. Oversimplification at least starts with something real. A semantic black hole has nothing underneath it to simplify from. Neither serve the same purpose as the simplification that Randy is describing and I think that is key. One serves a useful purpose the others create confusion or abstraction instead of providing clarification.

Yes, the SBH provides nothing and may by virtue of its confusion, do the opposite of clarification.

 

[PharmrJohn]

@Randy Holmes-Farley --- Curiosity and a quick question. Bicarbonate addition to solution increases ALK but not pH so much. Soda Ash increases both. Looking at the formula, is the increase in pH due to a carbonate ion grabbing a hydrogen ion from the medium and making a bicarbonate ion? Simply reducing the amount of hydrogen ions in solution?

 

[sixty_reefer]

After giving it some thought, I’ve moved on from ecological maturity and am now aiming for ecological harmony in my aquarium.

 

[EnterName]

@Randy Holmes-Farley --- Curiosity and a quick question. Bicarbonate addition to solution increases ALK but not pH so much. Soda Ash increases both. Looking at the formula, is the increase in pH due to a carbonate ion grabbing a hydrogen ion from the medium and making a bicarbonate ion? Simply reducing the amount of hydrogen ions in solution?

Randy will know better, but this is my understanding:

When you add sodium bicarbonate NaHCO₃ into water it dissociates into sodium and bicarbonate ions:

NaHCO₃ → Na⁺ + HCO₃⁻​

Then the bicarbonate ions react with water to form carbonic acid and hydroxide ions:

HCO₃⁻ + H₂O ⇆ H₂CO₃ + OH⁻​

The OH⁻ is what raises pH. So 1 NaHCO₃ gives us 1 OH⁻.

For sodium carbonate (soda ash) Na₂CO₃ we have:

Na₂CO₃ → 2Na⁺ + CO₃²⁻
​

and then a carbonate ion that reacts to a bicarbonate ion and OH⁻:

CO₃²⁻ + H₂O ⇆ HCO₃⁻ + OH⁻​

followed by the same reaction of the bicarbonate as shown earlier

HCO₃⁻ + H₂O ⇆ H₂CO₃ + OH⁻
​

This means 1 Na₂CO₃ gives us 2 OH⁻, while 1 NaHCO₃ only provides 1 OH⁻.

 

[PharmrJohn]

Randy will know better, but this is my understanding:

When you add sodium bicarbonate NaHCO₃ into water it dissociates into sodium and bicarbonate ions:

NaHCO₃ → Na⁺ + HCO₃⁻​

Then the bicarbonate ions react with water to form carbonic acid and hydroxide ions:

HCO₃⁻ + H₂O ⇆ H₂CO₃ + OH⁻​

The OH⁻ is what raises pH. So 1 NaHCO₃ gives us 1 OH⁻.

For sodium carbonate (soda ash) Na₂CO₃ we have:

Na₂CO₃ → 2Na⁺ + CO₃²⁻
​

and then a carbonate ion that reacts to a bicarbonate ion and OH⁻:

CO₃²⁻ + H₂O ⇆ HCO₃⁻ + OH⁻​

followed by the same reaction of the bicarbonate as shown earlier

HCO₃⁻ + H₂O ⇆ H₂CO₃ + OH⁻
​

This means 1 Na₂CO₃ gives us 2 OH⁻, while 1 NaHCO₃ only provides 1 OH⁻.

Makes sense. Those equations brought be back 44 years to Inorganic Chem in Community College. Hey! I understood said concept from almost a half century ago! Good Lord, am I that old?! Can I say I remembered something from 50 years ago and not be 2 at the time?!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Randy Holmes-Farley --- Curiosity and a quick question. Bicarbonate addition to solution increases ALK but not pH so much. Soda Ash increases both. Looking at the formula, is the increase in pH due to a carbonate ion grabbing a hydrogen ion from the medium and making a bicarbonate ion? Simply reducing the amount of hydrogen ions in solution?

Yes, exactly!

In seawater, there is a fixed ratio of carbonic acid/bicarbonate/carbonate (ratio depends on pH).

If you add more of one of these, the mix trends back toward that fixed ratio. Adding carbonate, both of the other two rise by converting into them, and to make bicarbonate (or carbonic acid) out of carbonate, one has to take up ah+ and thereby raise pH.