Glutaraldehyde and aquarium

[vahegan]

Nope
I want to understand, does glutamate work in a freshwater aquarium the same way (feeding bacteria) as nopox does in a marine aquarium?

If all you want is to feed bacteria for some reason, using vodka/vinegar/sugar/glycerol is much cheaper option compared with glut, regardless of whether it is in fresh or saltwater. This is, however, normally not required in freshwater. In saltwater, this bacterial biomass is then exported by the skimmer, and since bacteria consume the phosphate and nitrate present in the system, these substances are thus removed from water - this is the main use of NOPOX and similar products. In freshwater, we do not use a skimmer, as it does not work efficiently, and this method for reducing nitrogen and phosphorus does not work there - if required, water changes are cheap and simple method to achieve that.
The main uses of glut in freshwater are as a method for eradication of unwanted algae, namely the stubborn black beard type algae, although many other types are also affected. The other use (and this was supposed as the main use when Seachem first introduced it in the hobby in its Flourish product) was as carbon source that can be utilized by the plants. It is argued whether it is utilized as CO2 after decomposition in water column, or if it can be directly utilized by penetrating into cellular issue - as this method seems more energy efficient for the plant rather than building carbonhydrates from CO2.
As Randy has already mentioned, I have never heard of anyone using glut in a reef tank environment. I personally had always wanted to try it out to check if it could have any useful effect (just because I had used it efficiently in FW tanks), but have never had the chance to test it so far.

 

[vahegan]

How did you determine the lifetime in the water? That seems to require a sophisticated instrument.

I didn't, but I recall that this was the statement from Seachem, which introduced glutaraldehyde into the hobby in their product called Flourish Excel - which appears to also contain 2.5% solution, similar to popular cold sterilization products for medical uses, such as Cydex (this was popularly used in the hobby as a cheaper alternative for Flourish). In fact, they claimed that they used another isomer to glutaraldehyde in their product. The intended use of Flourish was as a carbon source in planted tanks, and their recommended dose was much lower than what most people used to fight the algae. In my experience, you have to dose daily, and preferably at night, to achieve the desired effect on algae, hence I believe that real lifetime for glut in freshwater is hours - when using above mentioned dose of 15 ml of 2.5% solution per 100 liters of water.

P.S. I have just checked on Seachem website, here's what they claim: "Flourish Excel™ can stay complexed as a carbon source for up to 24 hours before it dissipates".

P.P.S. Here's what they claim in regard with energy efficiency of plants consuming their product vs. CO2: "The reason plants need CO2 is to produce longer chain carbon compounds also known as photosynthetic intermediates. Photosynthetic intermediates includes compounds such as ribulose 1,5-bisphosphate, and 2-carboxy-3-keto-D-arabinitol 1,5 bisphosphate. Although the names are complicated, the structures are quite simple (5 carbon chains). Flourish Excel™ does not contain these specific compounds per se, but one that is quite similar. By dosing with Flourish Excel™ you bypass the involvement of CO2 and introduce the already finished, structurally similar compounds. It is in its structural similarity that Flourish Excel™ is able to be utilized in the carbon chain building process of photosynthesis. Simple chemical or enzymatic steps can easily convert it to any one to any one of the above named compounds (or a variety of others)."

P.P.P.S In regard with their isomer statement, in the SDS for Flourish Excel they call the active ingredient "Polycycloglutaracetal" and claim that its weight percentage is less than 2%.

 

[Malcontent]

https://pentairaes.com/media/docs/SC433-MSDS-Sheet.pdf

 

[Malum Argenteum]

OP lost me when it became clear that there was no practical implication. There’s a reason I went into Biology and not Physics. Theories, while interesting, just end up annoying me at some point.

Because there is no basic research in Biology, or because there are no practical implications of Physics?

If you're annoyed by a thread, the 'unwatch' button is a useful tool.

 

[crazyfishmom]

Because there is no basic research in Biology, or because there are no practical implications of Physics?

If you're annoyed by a thread, the 'unwatch' button is a useful tool.

Kind of like watching a train wreck at this point.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

Kind of like watching a train wreck at this point.

Oh, I don't know. The posts that are on topic are quite interesting.

The ones that are just bashing, or refusing to understand that the OP is asking a FW question (which was clarified in post #8, fifty seven posts ago, and reminded in posts #53 and #57), are problematic for sure.

 

[crazyfishmom]

Oh, I don't know. The posts that are on topic are quite interesting.

The ones that are just bashing, or refusing to understand that the OP is asking a FW question (which was clarified in post #8, fifty seven posts ago, and reminded in posts #53 and #57), are problematic for sure.

Thank you for your comment and useful thoughts.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nope
I want to understand, does glutamate work in a freshwater aquarium the same way (feeding bacteria) as nopox does in a marine aquarium?

Glutamate, or gluteraldehyde,

Gluteraldehyde will work like most metabolizable organics, including NOPOX. What I don’t know is if it will have specific undesirable toxic effects as well.

 

[MiZuboov]

Glutamate, or gluteraldehyde,

Gluteraldehyde will work like most metabolizable organics, including NOPOX.

I am very glad that I finally got an answer to my question. Where can I read more about the metabolism of such substances by bacteria?

 

[MiZuboov]

Glutamate, or gluteraldehyde,

Gluteraldehyde will work like most metabolizable organics, including NOPOX. What I don’t know is if it will have specific undesirable toxic effects as well.

The question was this: I had a large 800l planted aquarium. It was completely filled with different plants. I went on vacation for 3 weeks and I trusted another person to add only glutaraldehyde.
When I returned from vacation, all the plants looked great, and the tests showed 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates.
Now I think that glutaraldehyde fed the bacteria’s carbon, and they in turn fed ammonium to the plants.
Otherwise, they had no place to get nitrogen from.

 

[vahegan]

The question was this: I had a large 800l planted aquarium. It was completely filled with different plants. I went on vacation for 3 weeks and I trusted another person to add only glutaraldehyde.
When I returned from vacation, all the plants looked great, and the tests showed 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates.
Now I think that glutaraldehyde fed the bacteria’s carbon, and they in turn fed ammonium to the plants.
Otherwise, they had no place to get nitrogen from.

Seachem explains it a bit differently. You have probably missed this in one of my previous posts, let me quote them again: "The reason plants need CO2 is to produce longer chain carbon compounds also known as photosynthetic intermediates. Photosynthetic intermediates includes compounds such as ribulose 1,5-bisphosphate, and 2-carboxy-3-keto-D-arabinitol 1,5 bisphosphate. Although the names are complicated, the structures are quite simple (5 carbon chains). Flourish Excel™ does not contain these specific compounds per se, but one that is quite similar. By dosing with Flourish Excel™ you bypass the involvement of CO2 and introduce the already finished, structurally similar compounds. It is in its structural similarity that Flourish Excel™ is able to be utilized in the carbon chain building process of photosynthesis. Simple chemical or enzymatic steps can easily convert it to any one to any one of the above named compounds (or a variety of others)."

 

[MiZuboov]

Seachem explains it a bit differently. You have probably missed this in one of my previous posts, let me quote them again: "The reason plants need CO2 is to produce longer chain carbon compounds also known as photosynthetic intermediates. Photosynthetic intermediates includes compounds such as ribulose 1,5-bisphosphate, and 2-carboxy-3-keto-D-arabinitol 1,5 bisphosphate. Although the names are complicated, the structures are quite simple (5 carbon chains). Flourish Excel™ does not contain these specific compounds per se, but one that is quite similar. By dosing with Flourish Excel™ you bypass the involvement of CO2 and introduce the already finished, structurally similar compounds. It is in its structural similarity that Flourish Excel™ is able to be utilized in the carbon chain building process of photosynthesis. Simple chemical or enzymatic steps can easily convert it to any one to any one of the above named compounds (or a variety of others)."

I have read other studies where it was said that the normal dosage of glut gives only 3 mg/l of CO2. Does it really have any effect if I was actively adding high pressure co2, bringing the dropchecker to lime color?

 

[MiZuboov]

Seachem explains it a bit differently. You have probably missed this in one of my previous posts, let me quote them again: "The reason plants need CO2 is to produce longer chain carbon compounds also known as photosynthetic intermediates. Photosynthetic intermediates includes compounds such as ribulose 1,5-bisphosphate, and 2-carboxy-3-keto-D-arabinitol 1,5 bisphosphate. Although the names are complicated, the structures are quite simple (5 carbon chains). Flourish Excel™ does not contain these specific compounds per se, but one that is quite similar. By dosing with Flourish Excel™ you bypass the involvement of CO2 and introduce the already finished, structurally similar compounds. It is in its structural similarity that Flourish Excel™ is able to be utilized in the carbon chain building process of photosynthesis. Simple chemical or enzymatic steps can easily convert it to any one to any one of the above named compounds (or a variety of others)."

Or do you want to say that by introducing glutamate, we give something more than CO2 and therefore these compounds?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am very glad that I finally got an answer to my question. Where can I read more about the metabolism of such substances by bacteria?

bacteria can metabolize a huge array of organics. If you have a question about a specific one, I’d google it. There won’t be a full list somewhere.

See page 122 for gluteraldehyde metabolism:

https://www.industrialchemicals.gov.au/sites/default/files/PEC3-Glutaraldehyde.pdf

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Or do you want to say that by introducing glutamate, we give something more than CO2 and therefore these compounds?

Glutamate is a source of N.

 

[vahegan]

Or do you want to say that by introducing glutamate, we give something more than CO2 and therefore these compounds?

The quote from Seachem is just about that: they claim that glutaraldehyde is consumed by the plants as ready-made "bricks", so that they do not have to bake these bricks from CO2 (which requires them to spend more energy). And yes, they also say that the supplementation with their Flourish Excel is beneficial even when there is conventional CO2 supply in the tank.

 

[vahegan]

Glutamate is a source of N.

I think he means glutaraldehyde but not being a native english speaker he probably uses some translation service which translates the jargon word "glut" as "glutamate"

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The quote from Seachem is just about that: they claim that glutaraldehyde is consumed by the plants as ready-made "bricks", so that they do not have to bake these bricks from CO2 (which requires them to spend more energy). And yes, they also say that the supplementation with their Flourish Excel is beneficial even when there is conventional CO2 supply in the tank.

Which seems to be a typical Seachem assertion lacking any evidence. I’m personally skeptical that water plants take up gluteraldehyde for use.

 

[MiZuboov]

I’m personally skeptical that water plants take up gluteraldehyde for use.

How then to explain the growth of plants when there were no fertilizers at all, except gluteraldehyde?

 

[MiZuboov]

I think he means glutaraldehyde but not being a native english speaker he probably uses some translation service which translates the jargon word "glut" as "glutamate"

That’s true..