Help diagnosing strange skin lesions

Andrew D

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Hi everyone. I'd appreciate some help figuring out what is going on with 2 of my fish in my 500G fish only tank. Pictures are below but they are two of about 40 fish of varying sizes and types, the only two showing this kind of damage. One is a blue cheek butterfly the other a flagfin angel. They are larger than most fish in the tank but there are a handful that are bigger including a few tangs (yellow, scopas, purple, sailfin, regal, naso, vlamingi, dussumerei) and some angels (koran, blue cheek, maculous). I mention this because I'm wondering if it's aggression and potential infection rather than any parasite. I do see a lot of food competition and some fighting amongst the tangs but not anything significant involving these two. The other thing I think it might be is flukes, although the pictures in the stickies don't look as bad as this.

I have had issues with the tank before, significant fish loss due to either severe ich or velvet (couldn't properly diagnose, feedback on this forum was mixed), which I treated with longer than necessary periods of both hyposalinity and coppersafe, the former because I didn't have enough of the latter available when disease first set in. I have added fish since these treatments but I'm careful to quarantine everything now with coppersafe. I've never treated for flukes which is why I think it might the culprit.

The other important thing to add is that about 3 weeks ago I noticed some of the same symptoms that cause my earlier crash, lost 3 small butterflies with a number of others starting to quickly decline. This time around I acted quickly, dosed prazipro (only one full strength dose), dropped the salinity over 3 days to 1.012 and started dosing coppersafe. I know now it was risky to do all these at once but I panicked. Thankfully my fish recovered and I've not lost anything since then. I didn't dose more prazipro and slowly raised the salinity to it;s current level of about 1.016 but continued to raise copper where it now sits at the therapeutic level of 2.2-2.3. I did this because after the initial response I wanted to reduce fish stress by focusing on one treatment not three, and because I am most worried about ich or velvet given how quickly those can kill.

I think that's all that's relevant but please let me know if more is needed. Thanks in advance for your help. We are all attached to our fish but I've invested a lot in this tank since my crash and I don't think I could handle another one.

flagfin angel.jpg blue cheek butterfly.jpg
 

vetteguy53081

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Hi everyone. I'd appreciate some help figuring out what is going on with 2 of my fish in my 500G fish only tank. Pictures are below but they are two of about 40 fish of varying sizes and types, the only two showing this kind of damage. One is a blue cheek butterfly the other a flagfin angel. They are larger than most fish in the tank but there are a handful that are bigger including a few tangs (yellow, scopas, purple, sailfin, regal, naso, vlamingi, dussumerei) and some angels (koran, blue cheek, maculous). I mention this because I'm wondering if it's aggression and potential infection rather than any parasite. I do see a lot of food competition and some fighting amongst the tangs but not anything significant involving these two. The other thing I think it might be is flukes, although the pictures in the stickies don't look as bad as this.

I have had issues with the tank before, significant fish loss due to either severe ich or velvet (couldn't properly diagnose, feedback on this forum was mixed), which I treated with longer than necessary periods of both hyposalinity and coppersafe, the former because I didn't have enough of the latter available when disease first set in. I have added fish since these treatments but I'm careful to quarantine everything now with coppersafe. I've never treated for flukes which is why I think it might the culprit.

The other important thing to add is that about 3 weeks ago I noticed some of the same symptoms that cause my earlier crash, lost 3 small butterflies with a number of others starting to quickly decline. This time around I acted quickly, dosed prazipro (only one full strength dose), dropped the salinity over 3 days to 1.012 and started dosing coppersafe. I know now it was risky to do all these at once but I panicked. Thankfully my fish recovered and I've not lost anything since then. I didn't dose more prazipro and slowly raised the salinity to it;s current level of about 1.016 but continued to raise copper where it now sits at the therapeutic level of 2.2-2.3. I did this because after the initial response I wanted to reduce fish stress by focusing on one treatment not three, and because I am most worried about ich or velvet given how quickly those can kill.

I think that's all that's relevant but please let me know if more is needed. Thanks in advance for your help. We are all attached to our fish but I've invested a lot in this tank since my crash and I don't think I could handle another one.

flagfin angel.jpg blue cheek butterfly.jpg
At one point looks like bite marks from a tankmate but can also be neobndendia flukes. Is fish itching, sudden darting, gasping at surface and experiencing loss of appetite and elevated breathing?
 
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Andrew D

Andrew D

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At one point looks like bite marks from a tankmate but can also be neobndendia flukes. Is fish itching, sudden darting, gasping at surface and experiencing loss of appetite and elevated breathing?
No, they're behaving completely normal, normal appetite too. that's the puzzling thing. The marks seem to be getting darker, more visible.
 

vetteguy53081

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No, they're behaving completely normal, normal appetite too. that's the puzzling thing. The marks seem to be getting darker, more visible.
i suggest treatment using seachem Kanaplex in a separate tank with airstone added
 

Jay Hemdal

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Hi everyone. I'd appreciate some help figuring out what is going on with 2 of my fish in my 500G fish only tank. Pictures are below but they are two of about 40 fish of varying sizes and types, the only two showing this kind of damage. One is a blue cheek butterfly the other a flagfin angel. They are larger than most fish in the tank but there are a handful that are bigger including a few tangs (yellow, scopas, purple, sailfin, regal, naso, vlamingi, dussumerei) and some angels (koran, blue cheek, maculous). I mention this because I'm wondering if it's aggression and potential infection rather than any parasite. I do see a lot of food competition and some fighting amongst the tangs but not anything significant involving these two. The other thing I think it might be is flukes, although the pictures in the stickies don't look as bad as this.

I have had issues with the tank before, significant fish loss due to either severe ich or velvet (couldn't properly diagnose, feedback on this forum was mixed), which I treated with longer than necessary periods of both hyposalinity and coppersafe, the former because I didn't have enough of the latter available when disease first set in. I have added fish since these treatments but I'm careful to quarantine everything now with coppersafe. I've never treated for flukes which is why I think it might the culprit.

The other important thing to add is that about 3 weeks ago I noticed some of the same symptoms that cause my earlier crash, lost 3 small butterflies with a number of others starting to quickly decline. This time around I acted quickly, dosed prazipro (only one full strength dose), dropped the salinity over 3 days to 1.012 and started dosing coppersafe. I know now it was risky to do all these at once but I panicked. Thankfully my fish recovered and I've not lost anything since then. I didn't dose more prazipro and slowly raised the salinity to it;s current level of about 1.016 but continued to raise copper where it now sits at the therapeutic level of 2.2-2.3. I did this because after the initial response I wanted to reduce fish stress by focusing on one treatment not three, and because I am most worried about ich or velvet given how quickly those can kill.

I think that's all that's relevant but please let me know if more is needed. Thanks in advance for your help. We are all attached to our fish but I've invested a lot in this tank since my crash and I don't think I could handle another one.

flagfin angel.jpg blue cheek butterfly.jpg

Neobenedenia is the one fluke that can cause issues like this, but there is almost always some symptoms of white cloudy eyes on the fish and you aren't seeing that, correct?

1.016 is right on the borderline of controlling Neobenedenia - if your testing is a bit off and the actual specific gravity is 1.017, Neo can survive. The problem with prazi and Neo is that the eggs are tough and not harmed by hypo.

Two differential diagnosis here - bite marks from other fish, or secondary bacterial infections at the site where Neobendenia had been attached prior to the treatment.
 
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Andrew D

Andrew D

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Wow, I love this forum, replies from 2 well respected minds within 12 hours of my original post. Very grateful indeed.

To answer your questions...

- I can't easily catch these fish so am unable to treat separately with kanaflex. I also live in Canada where it is difficult to get some fish medications. How vital is this treatment, is there an alternative I can use if I can't get it here and lastly can i treat the display?

- No, I've not seen any cloudy eyes but I will check again when the lights come on.

- I raised the salinity after I started dosing copper because I read that it is stressful on fish to do both at the same time and I was more worried about quick death from ich or velvet (especially given my past experience with one or both of these pests). I'm a week into my copper treatment so I'd prefer not to have to interrupt this, is it OK to still drop the salinity to treat for flukes?

Thanks again. Andrew
 

Jay Hemdal

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Wow, I love this forum, replies from 2 well respected minds within 12 hours of my original post. Very grateful indeed.

To answer your questions...

- I can't easily catch these fish so am unable to treat separately with kanaflex. I also live in Canada where it is difficult to get some fish medications. How vital is this treatment, is there an alternative I can use if I can't get it here and lastly can i treat the display?

- No, I've not seen any cloudy eyes but I will check again when the lights come on.

- I raised the salinity after I started dosing copper because I read that it is stressful on fish to do both at the same time and I was more worried about quick death from ich or velvet (especially given my past experience with one or both of these pests). I'm a week into my copper treatment so I'd prefer not to have to interrupt this, is it OK to still drop the salinity to treat for flukes?

Thanks again. Andrew

Coppersafe works in FW or SW, so using it during hyposalinity is fine from that perspective. I just worry about multiple, stressful treatments at the same time. That said, you aren't really at full hypo (1.009) so I think you are fine to run the tank at 1.015 AND coppersafe at the same time.
 
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Andrew D

Andrew D

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Thanks Jay. I read though that we had to maintain SG at 1.012 and not 1.015 to erradicate Neobendenia, can you confirm? Also, I checked the eyes and there is no cloudiness at all.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks Jay. I read though that we had to maintain SG at 1.012 and not 1.015 to erradicate Neobendenia, can you confirm? Also, I checked the eyes and there is no cloudiness at all.

So - the 1.012 value actually comes from me. The 1.015 value is from a researcher who found that Neo dies at 1.016 and the eggs won't hatch either. I went lower with the 1.012 value to ensure people get to below the kill level, but not as low as true hypo for ich, which needs to be at 1.009 (but is more stressful). His research is valid, I just wanted some extra buffer because it can't hurt and removes all issues with improperly measuring specific gravity by the home aquarist.
 

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