Is a complete list of ingredients available for Balling part C?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nearly all of the 70 elements are also in Part C. This is because Part C contains all the trace elements in Tropic Marin. What we have left away in our Part C for our Original Balling is calcium and inorganic carbon (=alkalinity) because these are in Part A and B. What is in Part C is nearly the Periodic Table of Elements without noble gases and radioactive elements. So it is easier to ask what is not in Part C.

Thank you, Hans-Werner.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Salt, Dextrose, Garlic Extract, Onion Extract, Citric Acid other spices and natural flavors....

Like I said, this feels like a witch hunt based on semantics. They say that they are the same as found in seawater, so they are not hiding anything, even if not explicitly listing them.

Maybe the trace is in such small amounts and via impurity that listing them could be constituted as a lie if on one sample or another one or an other was missing.

I would vote on saving the scrutiny for things that matter and for companies known to be deceiving on purpose or out of arrogance.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Sorry @Hans-Werner you responded while I was typing.

 

[AKReefing]

Nearly all of the 70 elements are also in Part C. This is because Part C contains all the trace elements in Tropic Marin. What we have left away in our Part C for our Original Balling is calcium and inorganic carbon (=alkalinity) because these are in Part A and B. What is in Part C is nearly the Periodic Table of Elements without noble gases and radioactive elements. So it is easier to ask what is not in Part C.

Thank you! That's a much better answer than I've received in this forum. You confirmed that Part C includes the same elements that are in your SW mix, and narrowed down the list of elements.

With such an extensive list, might they have been derived from seawater?

The big question is why aren't you mentioning 70 elements on the Part C label?

 

[AKReefing]

So you say you are an engineer. I suspect you are familiar with reverse engineering…

There are approximately 92 naturally occurring elements in seawater. If you eliminate the obvious ones like O, H etc… you can figure out what the 70 likely are.

As for concentration TM stated they add them in natural concentrations…

Mystery solved…

The Part C label doesn't mention 70 elements... As far as reverse engineering, your approach is flawed... Thank you for the condescension...

 

[Mels_Reef]

Nearly all of the 70 elements are also in Part C. This is because Part C contains all the trace elements in Tropic Marin. What we have left away in our Part C for our Original Balling is calcium and inorganic carbon (=alkalinity) because these are in Part A and B. What is in Part C is nearly the Periodic Table of Elements without noble gases and radioactive elements. So it is easier to ask what is not in Part C.

if there are “all the trace elements in tropic Marin” in part C, what is the point of TM A-Essentials and K-Essentials?? Not trying to be argumentative. I’d really like to know the answer as I am currently dosing Part C AND A&K essentials. I dont want to ooverdose trace

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you! That's a much better answer than I've received in this forum.

OMG. He said exactly what I said over and over and quoted Lou Ekus as saying. You just wouldn't accept it.

 

[AKReefing]

if there are “all the trace elements in tropic Marin” in part C, what is the point of TM A-Essentials and K-Essentials?? Not trying to be argumentative. I’d really like to know the answer as I am currently dosing Part C AND A&K essentials. I dont want to ooverdose trace

Consumption?

 

[Nonya]

OMG. He said exactly what I said over and over and quoted Lou Ekus as saying. You just wouldn't accept it.

When you initially said, " I’ve never been clear if it is also missing the alk and/or calcium additives", how can anybody be assured that you were 100% certain as to the 70 elements?

I'm glad that Hans settled it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Consumption?

I have clearly answered that as well, both here and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times. There is zero mystery.

Move on.

How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters

How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters By Randy Holmes-Farley This article is intended to help aquarists understand some of the important differences between the great variety of two and three part alkalinity and...

www.reef2reef.com

2. A second method involves using a third part intended to correct these ion imbalances. This method is technically simpler than #1 since one is not deciding what can go where.

Commercial approaches in this regard include Tropic Marin Balling Part C and Aquaforest Reef Mineral Salt as the third part. These are artificial sea salt mixes without the sodium chloride, and are seemingly easy for a salt mix manufacturer to make correctly. The reason such a system can work is that, as noted above, the accumulating sodium and chloride are in the same ratio as in sodium chloride. Sodium chloride is the biggest ingredient in any salt mix (it must be), but if it is left out, and combined with the accumulating sodium chloride from use of the alkalinity and calcium parts, one can have a residue that matches the original salt mix in all aspects.

These third parts work equally well whether the alkalinity part is sodium bicarbonate, or carbonate or hydroxide, since all add the same amount of sodium per unit of alkalinity added. They are thus easily combined with any other two part, such as a DIY, to take a hybrid approach to save costs or to use sodium hydroxide for the alkalinity part.

One minor point is that while conceptually this works out well, if one is doing water changes along the way, between when the excess sodium and chloride were added and when the third part is added and salinity is corrected, the final effect will not be perfect. I think this effect is quite minor unless one waits a long time before making the adjustments. Ideally, one would frequently be adding this third part. The amount to use will depend on how much of the other two parts are being used.

Another issue is that use of sodium chloride free salt cannot offset ANY consumption of ions, such as magnesium or trace elements, unless it is not actually sodium chloride free salt as both companies claim, and those ions may need to be added in some other fashion.

Finally, it is not clear to me whether these mixtures actually contain calcium or alkalinity. If they do, as they seeming claim from the description, that may limit how concentrated they can be made for dosing (due to calcium sulfate and carbonate precipitation), but my guess is they leave them out without telling folks. That issue does not really concern a user either way since they will be dosing and controlling calcium and alkalinity anyway.

There are DIY recipes for this part 3, and my DIY two part recipes do include a third part. In my recipe, this third part is primarily designed to deal with magnesium and sulfate depletion, and is not focused on many other ions (such as bromide). They are cheaper, and many users have shown them adequate over the many years they have been used, especially when also doing water changes, but they are clearly less complete than the sodium chloride free salt mixes described above.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

WHen you initially said, " I’ve never been clear if it is also missing the alk and/or calcium additives", how can I be assured that you were 100% certain as to the 70 elements?

Regardless of your past lack confidence in what I said to be true, you can now understand, I assume, based on the written words of me, Hans-Werner, and Lou Ekus.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I will try to answer all important questions I have found:

They are basically taking their Pro Reef salt and not adding the Sodium Chloride part. Which makes sense. Salt mixes are like 80-85% NaCl if memory serves.

Since most salts of the mix are hydrated while NaCl is not, NaCl is actually quite exactly 70 %. The rest is correct. For us as we mix our salts from scratch ourselves it is no problem to use premixes and just leave away NaCl. So it really is what it says, the complete mix, just without the 70 % NaCl, and also without calcium and alkalinity for solubility reasons.

If Lou said the 70 trace elements are Part C, why doesn't the Part C label even mention them?

Because it would be too space consuming on the label to always list all elements. It also adds little to the understanding if you accept it is complete sea salt mix without sodium chloride.

Thats simply not an accurate statement. When I switched my dosing regimen from standard BRS to the hybrid balling method I removed my BRS magnesium solution and replaced it with the TM Part C solution. So, it DOES offset the magnesium consumption in a system. In the process, it also prevents an overdosing of sodium and chloride

It avoids deficits that would occur with two part system without magnesium addition. Magnesium consumption may be really low compared to calcium, and Pro-Reef and the Part C (based on the Pro-Reef formula) are slightly high in magnesium.

The magnesium and potassium is NOT the composition. it is just 2 of the 3 most abundant ions (the other being sulfate).

I do know why those two get listed and the other 70 do not. But it is not any indication that only those two are there (which would literally be impossible anyway since it would not be not charge balanced).

Yes, correct. We list magnesium and potassium because they can be tested for with home tests for a long time. For most trace elements it still is difficult to find them in an ICP-OES analysis at natural (or close to natural) concentrations. Since also the consumption or precipitation for most elements like lead or others is not known it adds no benefit. You would add some amount, find another in the reef tank and another quantity is depleted somehow in the tank.

To make it even more confusing, I didn’t even change water in the tank for the first 12 months. So Mg replenishment was coming from somewhere.

The aragonite skeletons of scleractinians consume very little magnesium. Most magnesium is consumed by coralline algae. It is possible that you will not find a significant magnesium consumption. It may stay in a range that is blurred by salinity fluctuations, testing tolerance and so on, so it may be hard to nail it down.

 

[AKReefing]

Regardless of your past lack confidence in what I said to be true, you can now understand, I assume, based on the written words of me, Hans-Werner, and Lou Ekus.

I believe Hans He answered one of the two questions I had (Part C does contain 70 trace elements). I found a video with Lou. After watching Lou's interview with Ryan (12:34), I understand Balling even more. He does a pretty good job of explaining why the A- and K+ trace elements are also necessary, and why they need to be added separately to the C and Alk, or dosed separately.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I believe Hans.

Excellent.

 

[Koty]

I have used the TM 3 part for over 2 years without water changes (over 3 years). I have about 40 species of LPS, SPS, Zoantides, one gorgonian, softies, and many fish, about 25, some of which solely depend on the flourishing fauna in my tank. (although it is n=1 ) most of my corals grow nicely (besides Xenia and GSP, which died because of growing sps corals blocking the lights). I also use their carbon sources and amino acids. My only issue is that TM products are very expensive in my country. The option to purchase large containers of almost every product significantly reduces the cost.

 

[Arkayology]

Thank you! That's a much better answer than I've received in this forum. You confirmed that Part C includes the same elements that are in your SW mix, and narrowed down the list of elements.

With such an extensive list, might they have been derived from seawater?

The big question is why aren't you mentioning 70 elements on the Part C label?

It's almost as if you should have reached out to the manufacturer directly instead of posting to a forum and then arguing with everyone...

 

[AKReefing]

It's almost as if you should have reached out to the manufacturer directly instead of posting to a forum and then arguing with everyone...

You realize that 99% of this site is people posting questions and getting a slew of arguments, disagreements and guesses.

What you think is an argument is just me asking questions and making counterpoints. My questions matter to me.

 

[AKReefing]

I have clearly answered that as well, both here and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times. There is zero mystery.

Mels-Reef asked the question, and you jumped on me for trying to be helpful?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Mels-Reef asked the question, and you jumped on me for trying to be helpful?

I responded to your post by stating that I had already answered his question in this thread, and repeated the info again to show your suggestion was not the correct answer.

I think we need to get off the who said what and just move one.

Facts are facts and those are resolved.