Jeopardy Answer: It cannot be done

[kingranch2003]

4) How can I create magic crystals on the surface of my rock

Sorry, I had to. I’ll sea myself out

Okay enough bad jokes. If I have more pop up, I’ll barium

Now there's a joke worth a Nickle!

 

[KrisReef]

What is awesome about this site is although Chuck rarely visits RHF keeps it real here in Chuck’s absence. I think Chuck trusts RHF more than I do, please don’t tell Chuck.

The uptake or loss of trace elements is presumably a result of metabolic activity in the tank.

Figuring out how all of the metabolic activity impacts trace elements is still a work in progress. It’s The Lords work to find out how it all affects works together and I hope Chuck or Randy gives us more answers as they work together to solve the issue.

 

[BristleWormHater]

What is awesome about this site is although Chuck rarely visits RHF keeps it real here in Chuck’s absence. I think Chuck trusts RHF more than I do, please don’t tell Chuck.

The uptake or loss of trace elements is presumably a result of metabolic activity in the tank.

Figuring out how all of the metabolic activity impacts trace elements is still a work in progress. It’s The Lords work to find out how it all affects works together and I hope Chuck or Randy gives us more answers as they work together to solve the issue.

Chuck Norris?

 

[KrisReef]

Chuck Norris?

Yes. He can fix anything.

 

[Hans-Werner]

There are, of course, a near infinite number of question this applies to, but three that might be worthy of mention are:

1. How can I reduce organics in the water without also removing some trace elements?

2. How can I reduce nitrate in the water without also removing some trace elements?

3. How can I reduce phosphate in the water without also removing some trace elements?

These come to mind when encountering a person who does not want to use some method for one of these because it also consumes some trace elements.

I cannot think of any method for any of these that does not remove trace elements as well, although some (like a water change) may add trace elements back, and some of these methods may remove more or different trace elements than others.

In general, I don't really think trace element export should be a primary reason to not use a method, assuming you need to do it. But knowing what that method removes could be useful in terms of dosing.

If anyone has counterexamples, I'm happy to hear them.

It works much better the other way round: Add trace elements to remove nitrate and phosphate (and possibly organics).

If trace elements are limiting nutrients it is difficult to have the full potential of nitrate and phosphate removal by coral growth. Overcoming this trace nutrient limitation may increase incorporation of nitrate and phosphate into coral growth. The effect of trace elements may be noticable and measurable.

Also for degradation of hard to degrade organics certain trace metals are necessary, namely copper and manganese, to form radicals able to crack the bonds.

 

[Hans-Werner]

In what way? I may not be reading the question right, my understanding is that you are saying that we cannot export phosphate or nitrate without also exporting trace elements.
To my knowledge denitrifying bacteria doesn’t require trace elements.

So if I run a sulfur denitrifier, I'm gassing off NO3 as N2 and NO etc.
So I ought to be able to keep all my precious trace elements, right?

For the enzymes for nitrate and nitrite reduction trace metals molybdenum and iron or copper are needed.

The answer to that is, IMO, the same as the answer to whether all or just some of the trace elements in foods are usable: we just don't have data on the recycling of trace elements in reef tanks. Some is recycled, certainly, but it is also likely some is not.

Some likely ends up removed in various ways, such as stuck to detritus, mineralized as a precipitate on the bottom or on rock and sand surfaces, removed by skimming, GAC, etc.

I think one major "sink" for trace elements in food are the organisms feeding on the food themselves. Like we humans take up most of the trace elements necessary for our metabolism from our food, also fish, corals and other invertebrates do.

The question is, how much of the trace elements added with food are taken up by the fish during digestion and how much leaves the fish and how much of the share that leaves the fish remains in the water in a bioavailable form.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Serious question, not being a jerk, is or should this discussion result in actionable information?

What I mean is, nutrient export has been a thing for as long as we have kept aquariums, but the existence and possible importance of trace elements is very recent, at least at the hobbyist level. We have been operating blind to this topic far longer than we have been aware of it, and removing trace via whatever we have been doing so far hasn’t as far as I am aware of had a negative impact.

I am admitting near total ignorance as to the importance of trace elements to the organisms in my care. I’ve done only 1 ICP test in my hobby career, and that was when I first started out and was killing everything (turned out I had 2 different salinity measuring devices out of calibration the same amount, and they checked each other. Lesson learned everything gets calibrated now)

I am still somewhat skeptical that things like moonshiners may more about the amount of attention you are paying to your aquarium vs the dosing of trace elements. Sort of like the guy who eats McD’s everyday takes a fish oil pill thinking that will keep the cardiologist away.

My philosophy in most things is take care of the big things and the small stuff takes care of itself. But I’ve been wrong before and am always looking for more information…in this case is the juice worth the squeeze? I am open to the idea

There are three reasons for my posting this thread.

1. I mentioned in the first post that some folks are making decisions on N, P, or organic export on the basis of incorrect info on whether some of these methods impact trace elements.

2. One reason for the thread is to just get folks thinking deeper about the processes available and how they work.

3. Finally, I sometimes try to make the forum a little more fun than it might otherwise be if it’s just a constant recitation of facts and ideas.

Yes, it is actionable. Think deeper on what we do. Consider impacts in trace elements of different processes. Account for those issues if and when it is appropriate.

 

[ajmckay]

It works much better the other way round: Add trace elements to remove nitrate and phosphate (and possibly organics).

If trace elements are limiting nutrients it is difficult to have the full potential of nitrate and phosphate removal by coral growth. Overcoming this trace nutrient limitation may increase incorporation of nitrate and phosphate into coral growth. The effect of trace elements may be noticable and measurable.

Also for degradation of hard to degrade organics certain trace metals are necessary, namely copper and manganese, to form radicals able to crack the bonds.

My first thought when I read this relates to planted aquarium methods. Where trace elements are referred to as fertilizers and when added in a balanced fashion along with light and co2 allows plants to fully utilize the nutrients in the water/substrate and maximize growth.

 

[NickNH]

I don't belive it can feasibly be done. Most mechanical filtration takes things with it in various amounts and forms.
Biological methods for nutrient control like bacteria, coral, and algae consume trace nutrients as they grow.
Ideally use both methods and just make sure to occasionally top up the water with trace nutrients.

 

[MyFirstCar]

Serious question, not being a jerk, is or should this discussion result in actionable information?

What I mean is, nutrient export has been a thing for as long as we have kept aquariums, but the existence and possible importance of trace elements is very recent, at least at the hobbyist level. We have been operating blind to this topic far longer than we have been aware of it, and removing trace via whatever we have been doing so far hasn’t as far as I am aware of had a negative impact.

I am admitting near total ignorance as to the importance of trace elements to the organisms in my care. I’ve done only 1 ICP test in my hobby career, and that was when I first started out and was killing everything (turned out I had 2 different salinity measuring devices out of calibration the same amount, and they checked each other. Lesson learned everything gets calibrated now)

I am still somewhat skeptical that things like moonshiners may more about the amount of attention you are paying to your aquarium vs the dosing of trace elements. Sort of like the guy who eats McD’s everyday takes a fish oil pill thinking that will keep the cardiologist away.

My philosophy in most things is take care of the big things and the small stuff takes care of itself. But I’ve been wrong before and am always looking for more information…in this case is the juice worth the squeeze? I am open to the idea

There are three reasons for my posting this thread.

1. I mentioned in the first post that some folks are making decisions on N, P, or organic export on the basis of incorrect info on whether some of these methods impact trace elements.

2. One reason for the thread is to just get folks thinking deeper about the processes available and how they work.

3. Finally, I sometimes try to make the forum a little more fun than it might otherwise be if it’s just a constant recitation of facts and ideas.

Yes, it is actionable. Think deeper on what we do. Consider impacts in trace elements of different processes. Account for those issues if and when it is appropriate.

I think its a fun question and poses some interesting thought experiments. Interrogation of these questions and norms are how we better understand reefing, and move success rates forward. This hobby did start with people bleaching rocks constantly, so we've come a long way.

It also has practical implications for those who do minimal/no water changes. Most (speaking *very* broadly) of success in this hobby comes from controlling what comes in and goes out of the water (light, food, filtration, etc). Reef-ers who do minimal water changes have tanks so the inputs and outputs are in balance, and learning more about these outputs of trace elements may help us understand why low/no water change tanks sometimes succeed and sometimes fail.

That said, I don't think anyone should be changing their reefing habits based on this one thread or discussion. Posing the question is just the start of the process.