Just Collected Moorish Idol, Tangs and Butterflies in Hawaii ...

[DsbReefer]

Aloha from Hawaii! Sure, it ain't all paradise in Hawaii cuz we're not allowed to have corals... but being able to go out at night and collect your own doesn't suck! I'm on the Big Island of Hawaii on the hIlo side. I was diving Kona side last weekend and saw literally thousands of yellow tangs grazing on the reef. SO I certianly hope they open up the aquarium trade for ya'll soon, becasue the numbers are WAY up! Were even up when they let Hawaiii export....

Anyway I'd love some help with this Moorish Idol and Tanks 4 days into QT. I know it's a lot for a 20Gal but I needed two tangs for algae control and two butterflies for aptasia control. Look at the video; they're already eating aptasias- and I've never had a Racoon Butterfly eat my aptasias unitl now! I also got lucky with the Moorish Idol so brought him home form a night on the reef.

I have had luck keeping idols in the past with getting them to eat spectrum pellets long term. I realize now people have issues with them because they don't travel well. Not because they are impossible to have in an aquarium long term.

My concern is the twitching (noticeable in video but often exaggerated form this). I started with .5 Cupramine as where I collect it is stagnant water, and I knwo those fish have parsites and disease. WHen I saw the twitching I added Prazipro in case of any parasites attached to gille or flukes and lowered to .35 learning since Idols are sensitive to copper.

I was doing 50% water changes every 2 dasy but saw Ammonia levesl going up and Idol breathing fast so realized there was a lot of uneaten food and I had to shift gears. I did another 50% 10 gal water change and then am doing 5 gal every day and the Idol seems relaxed now.

I realize there are a LOT of fish in there. I may have to either take the Tangs back, or try my luck with the Butterflies in my tide pool rubbermaid tub, since they are eating and showing no ill signs. Risky, I know...
Regardless I'm going to increase to 50% water change daily.

Could the twitching just be the Ich is falling off and going its course? Still no visible dots after 4 days I just know all fish from this area have it and it usually shows itself. My other 4 displays are part of a 200 gal system with tidepool outside with sump and two displays inside. The 90 gal display and 120 gal tidepool both have DSB.

Looking forward to getting these out in about another week, assuming the twitching stops... does my protocol and plan seem sound? Mahalo!

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

#fishmedic
You covered most of the important info here, but how high did the ammonia go?

Also, just as a note for any future issues, the disease forum (linked below) would be a good spot for questions on fish treatment and quarantine procedures (don't post there now; I've already tagged the fish medic crew here, so you should get some useful advice here soon):

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[DsbReefer]

#fishmedic
You covered most of the important info here, but how high did the ammonia go?

Also, just as a note for any future issues, the disease forum (linked below) would be a good spot for questions on fish treatment and quarantine procedures (don't post there now; I've already tagged the fish medic crew here, so you should get some useful advice here soon):

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

Ammonia levels got to .25 - .5 max. But the Moorish Idol's rapid breathing did stop after water change. Thanks for calling in the fish medics, I will post over there next time!

 

[DsbReefer]

She's about 3 inches. Butterflies eating like pigs already. Glad to have some that ACTUALLY eat aptasias!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

She's about 3 inches. Butterflies eating like pigs already. Glad to have some that ACTUALLY eat aptasias!

Does the tank have good aeration? You should have a strong air stone running from the bottom to the top of the tank. What is the water temperature?

Moorish idols handle chelated copper fine, just not ionic copper like Cupramine. Don't add any ammonia de-toxifiers to the tank while it has Cupramine in it.

What is the ammonia level currently, and what test kit are you using to measure it?

 

[DsbReefer]

Does the tank have good aeration? You should have a strong air stone running from the bottom to the top of the tank. What is the water temperature?

Moorish idols handle chelated copper fine, just not ionic copper like Cupramine. Don't add any ammonia de-toxifiers to the tank while it has Cupramine in it.

What is the ammonia level currently, and what test kit are you using to measure it?

Super helpful Jay, looks like I need to switch my copper. Can I do it with say a 3/4 water change, or gradually replace it with chloroquine phosphate or coppersafe as to not stress out the idol? He may be twitching just because of the wrong copper? The ammonia test kit was API, @.25-.5 but I'm sure with all the inhabitants ammonia was creeping up. I did take the blenny out to reduce the load.

I did add another powerhead, besided the hang on back with a spong from my display tank. Should I add an airstone atop this and continue with prazipro?

I juuussst now noticed a slightly cloudy fin on the idol. The butterflies are super clean, eating like pigs and convict tangs (maninis) have clear fins as well.

My concern is now seeing the slightly cloudy fin is that she may have velvet, not ich. But I knwo where these fish come from they normally have parasites and sometimes velvet

 

[littlefoxx]

She's about 3 inches. Butterflies eating like pigs already. Glad to have some that ACTUALLY eat aptasias!

Shes pretty! Hope you get her through QT

 

[DsbReefer]

My plan now is to do 3/4 change and replace with coppersafe to be less stressful on Idol.
THe question is to continue with Prazipro... THe Idol is twitching regularly after 5 days in QT...
It increased when I reduced Cuprimine from .5 to .25
I'll also add a bubble to be safe atop the powerhead and HOB.

 

[DsbReefer]

With the cloudy fin + twitching 'I'm wanting to do General Cure along with coppersafe.
Does that seem like a solid plan?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

With the cloudy fin + twitching 'I'm wanting to do General Cure along with coppersafe.
Does that seem like a solid plan?

Switching from ionic copper to chelated copper is tricky - the doses are so different. You should either just ride the cupramine out, or change all of the water (in stages) to get back to zero and then run coppersafe. Be aware though, while you are switching over, you need to work fast because the fish are unprotected during the transition.

I do not like to combine General Cure and coppersafe, it increases the stress on the fish. People do that though when the suspicion is multiple parasites, or when the parasite issue isn't really clear.

 

[DsbReefer]

Switching from ionic copper to chelated copper is tricky - the doses are so different. You should either just ride the cupramine out, or change all of the water (in stages) to get back to zero and then run coppersafe. Be aware though, while you are switching over, you need to work fast because the fish are unprotected during the transition.

I do not like to combine General Cure and coppersafe, it increases the stress on the fish. People do that though when the suspicion is multiple parasites, or when the parasite issue isn't really clear.

Thanks Jay, I'm definitley suspecting multiple issues as these fish come in dirty from the ocean. It's not open ocean but calm tidepools behind a breakwall so gets stagnant. Usually ich, Velvet and other parasites Im worried about.

Now I noticed the BFFs are getting some cloudy fin too. I switched out 3/4 water change and am running a 1.75 Coppersafe solution. I didn't see the part sbouty General Cure So that's being dosed as wel since I thought it was gentler than the Prazipro.

It seems cloudy fin can be from many things but in the past Ive seen it always develop into what looked like velvet. Especially with these wild fish.

So what do you think? Stay the course with General Cure or just focus now with Coppersafe at 1.75 . THe Idol is defintily not twitching very much now... Seems like occasional to get away from floating food Angel and BFF frozen cubes with the spong)

I'm open to any tops on getting her to feed as that still hasn;t happenned yet. I think Gettign some sponge from the ocean may be my best bet at this point and gradually mixing in spectrum pellets and otherwise. Thanks again!

 

[DsbReefer]

All are eating well now. Idol is pigging on my frozen food blend mixed with the Angel/BFF/Spong food and mastic pasted onto an abalone shell. Yay!

 

[DsbReefer]

The question now is why so much twitching and should I attempt a freshwater dip on the idol to see if it could be flukes or somthing tonight when she's calm? Here's a look at the twitching and eating...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay, I'm definitley suspecting multiple issues as these fish come in dirty from the ocean. It's not open ocean but calm tidepools behind a breakwall so gets stagnant. Usually ich, Velvet and other parasites Im worried about.

Now I noticed the BFFs are getting some cloudy fin too. I switched out 3/4 water change and am running a 1.75 Coppersafe solution. I didn't see the part sbouty General Cure So that's being dosed as wel since I thought it was gentler than the Prazipro.

It seems cloudy fin can be from many things but in the past Ive seen it always develop into what looked like velvet. Especially with these wild fish.

So what do you think? Stay the course with General Cure or just focus now with Coppersafe at 1.75 . THe Idol is defintily not twitching very much now... Seems like occasional to get away from floating food Angel and BFF frozen cubes with the spong)

I'm open to any tops on getting her to feed as that still hasn;t happenned yet. I think Gettign some sponge from the ocean may be my best bet at this point and gradually mixing in spectrum pellets and otherwise. Thanks again!

Coppersafe at 1.75 often doesn't stop active infections. You should get the dose to 2.25. I use 2.5 in severe infections.

Finding a species of sponge that the fish will eat may be a challenge. Also, if you are bringing new items into the tank from the sea, you could be reinfecting it. What about trying mussels or clams on the half shell? We have some new moorish idols from Australia, and that's what they started feeding on.

 

[DsbReefer]

Okay

Coppersafe at 1.75 often doesn't stop active infections. You should get the dose to 2.25. I use 2.5 in severe infections.

Finding a species of sponge that the fish will eat may be a challenge. Also, if you are bringing new items into the tank from the sea, you could be reinfecting it. What about trying mussels or clams on the half shell? We have some new moorish idols from Australia, and that's what they started feeding on.

Awesome, Jay. I have Coppersafe at 2.1 now. Everyone including Idols are eating like pigs now. No more twitching on the idol either. Hope to move them to my system by this Sat. Merry Christmas!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I would wait a bit before moving them - I prefer 30 days of full coppersafe, but 14 days is the absolute minimum, and it is still risky. You see, coppersafe only kills the theront stage, so you need to keep them in copper long enough for all of the tomonts to hatch out.

Okay

Awesome, Jay. I have Coppersafe at 2.1 now. Everyone including Idols are eating like pigs now. No more twitching on the idol either. Hope to move them to my system by this Sat. Merry Christmas!